How do you DE players rate Dark Elves? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    How do you DE players rate Dark Elves?

    Hey all,

    I was just curious to gather some feedback on how you rate the various general aspects of our beloved Druchii

    We'll cover each general area, characters, magic etc etc, giving a score out of 10 by comparisson to other armies.

    I'll go first to set the pace!

    Characters - 7 (this would be an 8, but the asassain being too expensive brings it down)
    DE Magic Items- 3 (lets face it, they suck!)
    Magic - 6 (mostly because of the poor items to support it)
    Shooting - 6.5 (not great, but better than some armies can field)
    Speed/movement/maneuverability - 9 (i'd give a 10 if it wasn't for failed stupidity tests)
    Combat prowess - 5.5

    I think once our characters & especially magic items are fixed up, the DE army will be roughly where it should be.

    Feel free to post your reasoning for your scores. As the title states, this is aimed more at people who actually use Dark Elves.

    I'll see how this goes & then maybe start up a similar thread in each army section.

    If you want to suggest any categories you feel I have missed, please do so.

    Cheers

    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
    W L D
    21 5 5

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  3. #2
    Blood & Souls for Khaine! flameseeker574's Avatar
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    good idea manu, so here is what i think from the games i play (1.5k-1k)agianst dwarves and lizzes

    Characters - 7.5 (they are decent what makes them worth an 7.5 is the varitey of mounts you can put them on, and their good stats, the only co is T3 and cost)
    DE Magic Items- 5(i think that we have a good variety with this but the cost is an issue,for example a certin HE item costs 10 pts vs the DE equivelent is 2o, also i would like to see more 1 handed options and better magic armor)
    Magic - 6(like manu said lack off options and the price drags it down)
    Shooting - 6 (vs anything thats T4 or has mare then a 5+ as S3 shooting isnt gunna do anything, but RBT are superb and make up for the RXBs)
    Speed/movement/maneuverability - 9 (would be 10 cept for stupidity)
    Combat prowess - 6.5(lack of s4 options brings this down but all in all its farily good)

    I think that DE are an almost balanced army and in the revison would like to see all of the CoS and abioln iteams put in the book allong with a few more, i would also like to see acess to the temple of khaine items on mudane weapons like basic poisen for mabey 15 points(assasins should get it defualt) by bumping up the price on the varios ToK items for nobles it would make are army much more flexible. Also i would like to see BG get a 4+ armor save, and mabey execs too.

  4. #3
    Member Pazuriel's Avatar
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    Characters: 7 I think 90 points is a fair price for a noble, but like Manu said, assassins cost too much. I also rarely bother to field sorceresses (see below).

    Magic Items: 2 The list of items you want for your army is ridiculously short, like Crimson Death, Seal of Ghrond and.....Thats it (ok, I am exaggerating a bit, but still).

    Magic: 5 I barely even use it. Sorceresses you say? You mean scroll caddies, right?

    Shooting: 6.5 Above average, mainly because of the RBT.

    Speed/movement/maneuverability: 9 Stupidity on the CO's is a big liability.

    Combat prowess: 6 High WS and BS, but low S and T. A bit fragile.

    I hope to see a revamp with a good magic item list. That would make up for alot.

    -Paz
    Rork edit: Woah! Check your spelling - you only give "special chocies" to your girlfriend.

  5. #4
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    With this sort of thing, I'm not always convinced that a single number can ever capture an army or even one aspect of an army.

    Characters - 7-9 7 for the assassin, 9 for the highborn and 8 for everything else. Ld10 is a key asset of elven highborns, particularly in an army that can have lots of ld tests thanks to stupidity
    DE Magic Items- 4-8 Some of the worst, but also some of the best items. This is a small aspect of any army, though.
    Magic - 7-8 Fits the general dynamic of the army, supports the need to DE to attack rather than defend (Dominion, word of pain, black horror and to a lesser extent chillwind)
    Shooting - 6-8 Slightly difficult to gauge. Reapers are great, crossbowmen less so. But crossbowmen do fit into a smaller space thanks to multiple shots, but at the same time lose effectiveness faster as models die.
    Speed/movement/maneuverability - 8 8 since they don't have core skirmishers and/or flyers. More so since shades compete with harpies.
    Combat prowess - 7-8 There are a lot of highly destructive units in the DE army. Pretty much everything bar spearmen and black guard is geared towards inflicting large amounts of damage either through high strength or volume of attacks.
    Combat durability - 4-7 I think this is an important "flip-side" to combat prowess. Dark Elves can dish it out, but have difficulty taking damage. Only the Hydra, COK, COC and corsairs have any sort of decent armour or toughness. This is the main reason Dark Elves will lose - because they end up fighting the enemy on the opponent's terms.


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
    <3 rork. He does all the arguing so I don't have to.

  6. #5
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    Here's my takes:

    Characters - 6.5 (Low toughness, inability to get rerollable armor, but good skill, speed, equipment)
    DE Magic Items- 4 (Could use rerollable armor, and could use some cheap/useful/multi-usebound spell items.)
    Magic - 4 (overly expensive mages and lack of cheap/useful/multi-use bound spells means you can't use the decent dark magic lore very effectively)
    Shooting - 7 (about what you need to elimate the threats to your speed, which really helps the DE out IMO)
    Speed/movement/maneuverability - 8 (stupidity on the heavy hitters is really dumb for a finesse army, otherwise it'd be a 9. If we had something comparable to great eagles it'd be a 10.)
    Combat prowess - 6 (we could use some S6 non-mercenary choices).

    Cheers!
    -Koosh
    Last edited by kooshlord; June 22nd, 2007 at 17:34.
    Arena of Death Champion: Nexim of the Guldskullz Tribe. Fear my wrath!

  7. #6
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    Characters - 7.5
    Would be an 8+ except for the abysmal choice of special characters (non-legal ones don't count). Two are not worth their points to effects, Two are too costly at anything sub 3k which is 90% of all games played, and that overlap means two of the three are flawed in one way and one is flawed on both counts and thus totally useless.
    I can think of no other army that I would call -no- special characters worth it like that.
    Default characters I'm fine. Standard leader and magicy types are both above average or at least worth points, and we get two other options as well, one which lets a small army take a big monster and one which is... well people saying the Assassin is too expensive aren't using him right. He's not a normal character just cooler, he has to be used a certain way to validate his powers and it's nothing like a normal character. Used in the capacity he's guarenteed return on your investment. Once you think of him like LMen think of their JSoDs, or Eshin thinks of their Assassins, you're getting there.

    DE Magic Items- on average, a 3.5 at best (a 5 in sub 2k games, a 2 in 3k+game)
    I never have problems equiping my characters to about 2K-2.9K, the items are good especially with what common items can do for DE, their just is so stinking few of them worth their points! Very lacking, even with SoC still legal for me, in variety. I can build my characters in efficiant ways but I can't hope to mix it up any. Plus in large games, 3k+, I don't like my DE mostly because I run out of things to equip characters with (about 1-2k before I have that issue with my other armies in large games). I mean seriously, I reach a point where everything worth it's points is already on someone! That shouldn't ever happen till at LEAST 4k, since 3-3.9 is as balanced rule wise as 1-1.9K and is still a very played in range compared to higher or lower then those.

    Magic - 6
    All around good, or good enough. I'd give it a 7 if our High Sorc got access to one more lore to pick from, and Dark got refined just a little. It does effectively seems lower though, because the lack of magic items... especially bound items that work every turn or 1 shot ones with good casting values that have to be blocked when they're invoked their one time... prevents a DE player from drawing dispel dice away to other sources short of having to buy more casters. However I counted that in the above rating of items.

    Shooting - 7-8
    RBTs and RCBs for their points and what they do in the army are great.

    Speed/movement/maneuverability - 8-9+ (infantry/cav)
    Arguably the best Cav list in the game when used with support, and not counting DoWs.

    Combat prowess - N/A
    This is the player and how they apply their individual list to each foe, not the army. I can't even estimate it w/o dividing it into groups that would be offensive to the people I have to rate poorly.

    also since we're judging shooty individually and characters...

    Cavalry- 8.5

    Infantry- 7

    Cores- 7.5

    Specials- 7 most, 8 CoKs

    Rares- 8-9 RBTs, 5.5 others


    So my overall assessment is good, balanced army on GWs part... especially post that revision several years ago... it's main flaw rests in the fact it has such a lack of versatility in both it's magic item and it's magic. And it's having to pay a premium for that magic so it's no afterthought. A foe playing against you pretty much can assume about 75% of your magic items and be accurate 90% of the time, and enemies trying to counter your magic... which you've paid a ton for and is supposed to be effective... only have to know 3 lists to know which spells they're saving their dispel dice for and those three lists while not being bad all have some spell combos you could roll which would likely not even effect certain armies.
    Essentially... Magic in all it's forms at the cost DE pay for it should be more dependable, in comparison to it's usage elsewhere in the game and in other armies.


    And that just seems off to me fluff wise as well... that the weakness in the DE list is their MAGIC, which shy of Tzeentch {sp}, HE, and Nechs which are their equals, and Slann which are their superiors, they're supposed to be the best at. Yet they're not even on magical par with any of their 'equals'. In fact, my EMPIRE list makes more reliable and effective use of magic! (because I can put so many bound items, and W.Priests into play that 1 or 2 casters don't face all the enemy dispel dice.

    The Empire using magic better then DE's? Reliably? Okay, I cry foul GW.


    EDIT: new catagories from Pazuriel on page 2

    Price: 3 (don't need alot, but more metal in our army then in the real army)
    Looks/Fluff: 8.5 and 7 respectively
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  8. #7
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    117 (x6)

    I think 90 points is a fair price for a noble
    You might want to have a closer look at that! You'll be in for a pleasant surprise

    With this sort of thing, I'm not always convinced that a single number can ever capture an army or even one aspect of an army.
    Yeah I hear ya. However I thought I'd give it a go anyway. It doesnt have to be super accurate. I just want a rough idea of how people rate DE compared to other armies. Im hoping to get enough replies (10+) to work out an average rating.

    well people saying the Assassin is too expensive aren't using him right. He's not a normal character just cooler, he has to be used a certain way to validate his powers and it's nothing like a normal character. Used in the capacity he's guarenteed return on your investment. Once you think of him like LMen think of their JSoDs, or Eshin thinks of their Assassins, you're getting there.
    I agree with you that he functions in a very different way than normal characters. However, even with that taken into consideration, I still think he is a bit overpriced. Always 179 points..

    The best he can really do is get lucky and kill the enemy general, but even that is a bit of a gamble (he's often relying on poison or killing blow etc). I think that 'gamble factor' doesnt reflect the fluff. Revealing a hidden character & taking a gamble seems more like an Orcs & Goblins move, not a cunning, calculated & deadly Asassain attack. His killing power should be a bit more reliable, for the above reason.

    I think he should either be:
    -kept at current cost, but given something extra for it. Some have suggested coming with poison as standard equipment. Id also suggest the 'dance of doom' ward comes standard. It seems like a skill he SHOULD have.
    -Reduce his base cost to 100~
    -Be able to go back into hiding once a combat is finished. Your enemy would know which unit he is in, but not which uniform he is going to spring out of!!. Atleast he would still get 'stirkes first' again.
    -Reduce his base cost to 110 and allow 10-20 points more on upgrades. So he costs the same total, but more effective.
    -Poisoned hits should be allowed to be rolled for killing blow!!! Cutting someones head off is a killing blow, you cant say its not just because the blade doing it has a drop of poison on it... I hate this rule GW! >.<

    Anyways, so far it looks like we all agree about the magic items.

    Cheers
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
    W L D
    21 5 5

  9. #8
    I've had enough! timk1111's Avatar
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    205 (x7)

    ok

    Characters -9. I must be the only guy who likes the assassin. There's a reason he's so expensive. Coz he turns a simple unit of 20 spearmen into a merciless killing machine. Imagine when you whip him out, slaughter 30 or so orcs and your opponent says 'he costs what? 80 points?' It just wont happen. Other than that, it would be a 10, except for t3 all round, but thats elves, and i accecpt that.

    DE Magic Items- 7. we have good ones, and bad ones, but the good ones i think are REALLY good. Wish there were better bound items, tho. Just FYI, take a look at all the Orc and Gobbo magic items now. 2 kinds of armour.......we dont have it that bad

    Magic - 8. +1 to cast is more than most armies get, plus we have our own lore (a lore that chaos and VC's had in 5th ed.) Also consider the new lores of Death and Shaddow. They boost the magic a bit.

    Shooting - 7.5. Lots of things can shoot lots of shots in the DE army. Plus dont forget Menghil.

    Speed/movement/maneuverability - 9. Yeah, stupidity brings it down from the 10, but as long as DE ride coldones, its there to stay.

    Combat Prowess -8. Some really good HTH fighters in the list, that tend to compliment eqach others weaknesses (witches and exhicutioners, for example). T3 brings the score down a bit, but its on par with lots of armies anyway. Its the characters it criples.

    Regards, Tim


  10. #9
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    I must be the only guy who likes the assassin. There's a reason he's so expensive. Coz he turns a simple unit of 20 spearmen into a merciless killing machine. Imagine when you whip him out, slaughter 30 or so orcs and your opponent says 'he costs what? 80 points?' It just wont happen.
    Firstly I dont mean THAT cheap, im talking maybe 150 instead of 180.
    Secondly, I doubt its at all possible for him to kill 30 orcs. His best/only function is a surprise attack on enemy characters, either killing a wizard, or the general. And thus partly earning his keep.
    The problem is that most regular troops have the ability to kill him fairly easily. T3, 2 wounds, no save at all. After the initial surprise attack, he is a sitting duck, even goblins can kill him.. I blame this mostly on the ridiculous 'to hit' table.. WS1 having a 1/3 chance of hitting WS9? while the WS9 still only has a 2/3 chance of hitting the WS1? f__k that :sleep:
    It should be impossible for WS1-2 to hit him, 6+ for WS3, 5+ for WS4-5, and 4+ for everything else.
    and WS8+ should hit on 2+ against WS3 or lower.

    (just imagine yourself fighting Bruce Lee.. what im saying above is pretty realistic)

    Just FYI, take a look at all the Orc and Gobbo magic items now. 2 kinds of armour.......we dont have it that bad
    Ok, but Orcs & gobbos arent supposed to be anywhere near as good with magic as DE (and that fluff extends to magic items).

    We only have 4 ourselves.. AoLiving death is useless because its way too expensive. AoEternal servitude has the same problem, the best thing to do with regenrate is combine it with a ward save & good armour, which it takes up too many points for ( = mundane weapon too)
    AoDarkness is good but having a shield screws up using 2 handed weapons (our only good magic weapon, CD), plus you can get a better save from the mundane armour + enchanted shield.
    Blood armour is ok.. Shield of Ghrond, why bother when Enchanted shields are 1/3 the cost?
    Really we arent much better off than Orcs & gobbos
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
    W L D
    21 5 5

  11. #10
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    54 (x1)

    Shortened (yes, this was the short form, yes, the original was long).

    Someone emailed me w/ a good point and better way of saying it. I'll try rephrasing this the way they suggested.

    Short...
    +You're not going to be able to discuss individual points of individual units when you have something to say to someone specifically if your goal with this thread is to have people give their overall reviews. That's trying to tackle the whole forum in one thread. You just won't physically be able to have it all here after awhile (since if you get to comment to what others say, they can comment back, and pretty soon you get more of that then the rating posts the thread was about).
    +Good points to be discussed, like when you really agree with or disagree with someone, are only fairly going to be able to be done in their own, seperate threads. Especially if you're thinking long term with this thread.

    Long...
    Manu if you want this thread to stay on track and get peoples opinions it's probably going to have to involve people will agree to disagree in this thread in what they say in their validations. Addressing what specific people say when it's not really a factual question to begin with but it covers so much, that would be ALOT to do in one thread (especially when it disagrees with you and any thing you say would only fairly require a counter from them). I mean it's basically gonna use one thread to tackle what this whole DE forum section is meant to do.

    Reviewing others reviews will take this post away from it's intentions, and since this attempts to cover every single unit and unit type in the army, something which can really only be judged at a grander level, discussions of what others say in their validations... if you think it requires a discussion of the units/army section... might be better served in seperate threads.

    Just look at the Assassin. Our disagreement on its value aside, a back and forth on why I think you're wrong, and why you think I'm wrong, and how I use it, and how you think it would be improved... it would take a thread of its own and probably still end up with us not agreeing. And that's one unit, of one type, of one part of the the army and one function of it, and only two people. Of EVERYTHING that is encompassed in what you originally said you wanted opinions on.

    Is that the purpose of this thread? Or is it to have overall reviews. And if the answer is both, how are you going to tackle overall reviews and each point of each subsection worth talking about?

    No one thread could address all the areas people could disagree on in this one in detail and that's what happens if you start addressing individuals. Then the core idea... to get people to list their reviews of the army as a whole... probably won't be served by that because people will have to sort through people agreeing and disagreeing on points and not the key issue of the post... reviewing the army on your 1-10 scale. Not reviewing the review reasons of specific people, which aren't facts (this question is too far off how the game is actually balanced for that), but opinions. I mean I kind of want to address your points to me, but that would take multiple posts between us if we don't immediatly agree, none of which are related to the original question of overall opinion based 10 pt reviews of each subsection, and all take up space for people coming here to see those. But in a thread for it specifically, that would make sense.

    Of course reading peoples validations who give differant scores they'll disagree, but that's not countering each other specifically or trying to change each other, that's just neccisary to explain why differant scores are given on points.

    Sure it's not my right to say what direction a thread goes but lets face it I can't control that anyway, I'm just pointing out how can you discuss armies as a whole in overall reviews like this, but if you stop to debate individual points of individual units when you don't agree? I mean physically that's got to be too much for one thread to handle, especially if it's to keep true to that original goal of letting people state their overall opinions.

    I'm just suggesting when people validate what they say like you asked, perhaps if you disagree (or agree) on a point make it it its own thread about that point and take a good discussion to where it can have room to be discussed and not be in the way of the overall reviews you wanted (and I want to see).

    Trying to discuss the whole army at the same time your discussing individual units... that's the job of a forum, not a thread.

    Anyway. Hope this conveys my point without being so confrontational about it to you Manu. I just think if the point of this thread is about overall army reviews it should stick to that, and discussions of points of that need their own homes to do them, and this, justice.
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