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Haven't actually composed anything yet, just wanted to bounce come ideas. I've never played as my dwarfs in 8th edition, so i'm not quite sure how well they do in general. I used to run a war machine heavy list against my friends, and with the elimination of guessing range they said they didn't want to face my dwarfs, so i played other races.
Point being, I think i'd like to take the dwarfs to the ard boys finals, but i need to know how competitive they can really be. Do i have to use a cookie cutter list? if so, what is it? will i get completely humiliated no matter what i bring? there was only one dwarf in my preliminary round, and he placed 6th of 8. Zero dwarfs at the semi finals.
Scenario's can be found on the main GW website....
I was thinking something along these lines:
bugman / 'free' rangers
max organ guns
2-3 stone throwers (penetrating runes to be AT LEAST S4)
and whatever else i needed to do in order to fill in the gaps. I want the double rangers for the second scenario, so I can instantaly start in at least two terrain features, earning points for myself, or at least denying them to my opponent.
War machines do what they do best, while the organ guns in particular destroy units left and right. should make the first scenario easier. Third scenario will show the true power of dwarf cannons and stone throwers (its a "battle for the pass" type game).
again, i know nothing is actually set in stone here, its a blue print at best. I want to see what other think before i even take the time to fill in the gaps. so please no "you don't have enough core" type posts. Just in general, does anyone think this will work, or should I stay with my other race(s) for the finals?
ok, so I made up a preliminary list. Comments welcomed.
Total : 2996/3000
Lords : 621/750
Runelord w/ Anvil, R.Stone, R.Spellbreaking
Dwarf Lord w/ GW, shield bearers, R.Stone, R.Resistance, MR.Spite
Hero : 250/750
Master Engineer w/ MR.Challange
Core : 960/750
15 x Bugman's Longbeard Rangers w/ Musician
15 x "warrior" Rangers w/ Musician
10 x Thunderes
25 x Longbeards w/ Shields, Full command
30 x Warriors w/ GW, Full command
Special : 470/1500
Cannon w/ R.Burning
Grudge Thrower w/ R.Accuracy, R.Penetration, R.Penetration
Grudge Thrower w/ R.Accuracy, R.Penetration
Rare : 480/750
4 x Organ Gun
Some things I know I'm going to catch flak on:
No BSB. This is not a combat army. By the time I need a BSB, its too late. If i really need that extra +1 combat res then the artillary didn't do its job and I've already lost. And if i fail a LD check, well they deserve to run. If someone can help me find the points, I'll gladly toss him in there. Otherwise, I think I'll be alright without him.
Funny Master Engineer build. The idea behind it is that he'll be a sacrificial lamb. As soon as a dangerous enemy gets too close to the war machines, the master will jump out in front and off to the side. From there, he'll force the enemy unit to charge the character (saving the war machines) or run away completely. if the master dies, he dies. But it'll also mean the enemy unit is stationary, right in front of my warmachines for one more round of shooting the crap out of it. Looks good on paper, I'd like to try it in a few practice games first though to be sure.
Taking both a runelord and a dwarf lord. Some people will swear by one and say you don't need the other. each has his own role here. The anvil will help provide magic defense (+3 dice, scroll), while slowing the enemy down. I won't do much casting at arcane power unless its really vital. I'll just be after wrath and ruin to slow one choice enemy down for an extra round of shooting. Or the occasional flank charge courtisy of oath and honor. The dwarf lord, however, is all for the bonus points in the scenarios. There are too many points awarded for having your general kill something that I had to have a killy general. Even though mine is more focused on staying alive, those great weapon hits should do the trick. I figure, I'm going last with or without a great weapon, might as well have one, and then kit him out to stay alive (1+ rerollable, 4++). He'll likely go in with the horde, but longbeards will be standing by to recieve as well.
Too many war machines. yeah, I know. But I like them. And if they work right i can decimate an entire unit (or at least make it combat ineffective) each turn. the enemy can't have but so many scary units. Taking out one each turn will not only net me points, but eliminate my problems. Organ guns and stone throwers will be the work horses. Cannons are there for those monsters and monstorous mounts. Dragons won't last, hydras won'd last, HPA won't last, doomwheels, other war machines.... they'll all fall before my cannons (in theory, dice gods have a way of proving people wrong).
I would be willing to drop a cannon, i think, if the trade off was good enough. I'm mostly concerned about the size of the ranger units. I don't want them so small that they're useless, but they don't need to be big combat units either. they're suppposed to go up there and grab the ale and high-tail it back to my own lines. I'll Probably deploy them in a 1x15, with just one model in the terrain feature. After finding the keg, I'll use the musicians swift reform, reform around the center folks, and start heading for home. I figure that initial reform should get me at least 3 inches, and will thus be more efficient than marching.
Thoughts are welcomed and appreciated. As I said, never played dwarfs in 8th (friends wouldnt' really let me), so I'd really like some feedback. Will it work?
ive been building up to a 3000 point list and this is what works for me, anvil, miners, organ guns and cannons or grudge throwers. you have the required artillary but your cannons are in my opinion risky, very risky. put runes of forging on them both i know its expensive but if you dont take them your investments will go sown the drain the strength of dwarf artillery lies in its reliability. the master is kind of a waste, think about it if you are needing his sacrifice then that means a large enemy unit is already close upon you and has probably taken a flank. in 8th small units of 15 dont work, terain no longer impedes movement unless it is "special terrain" that means that your warriors you have hoped to stall the enemy will instead give him free victory points. bugman is kind of a waste i mean you already have a ld 10 base with the lord. i would merge bugmans rangers with the warrior rangers to make it a 30 block and put them on a scree slope or somthing dangerous to enemies who wist to move inside to engage them he will think twice before engaging such a unit 30 strong with great weapons and crossbows and full com although i dont know what you mean by grabbing the ale some knid of mission mabye?. i would get rid of bugman though and exchange him with a thane with rune of the brotherhood and great weapon or whatever runes you prefer. to make point drop an organ gun 3 is enough for the job. also i would exchange the sheildbearers and rune of stone on the lord for master rune of gromil to save 5 points and get rid of the rune of stone on the runelord. the advice i would give you is to try and use some miners they are fantastic with the anvil. this is the list i run at 3000 give or take a few things when i feel like somthing different.
runelord with anvil, with 2 runes of spellbreaking
thane with battle standard w/ master rune of gromil and rune of resistance
thane with great weapon
25 dwarf warriors with sheilds full com.
25 dwarf warriors with sheilds full com.
25 dwarf warriors with sheilds full com.
60 miners full com. and steam drill
cannon with rune of forging and burning
cannon with rune of forging and 2 burning
grudge thrower with rune of accuracy and rune of burning plus engineer
grudge thrower with rune of accuracy and 2 burning plus engineer
this is my list the thunderers are their out of neccesity i dont really like them but i need them for the likes of knights and other tough armoured targets should the dice gods not be kind to my organ guns, plus they are a good buffer if anything. the warriors are to engage and hold the enemy fast so he cannot get to my warmachines, the miners will look to catch an elite swuad in its rear or flank to destroy it in one or 2 combat phases. they are a horde and can usually charge when they come on thanks to the anvil. another use for my thunderers is to confuse the enemy of my deployment he will have to react to mine in some way so i can lure a few of his units away from my battle lines that way. i equip my warmachines to be reliable and most of the time the are as should every dwarfs in my opinion. good luck in your quest!
decided not to take the dwarfs to ard boys. I simply can't play competitively with lists that I enjoy. I'm not saying dwarfs can't be competative (this should ward off all those that want to shout back at me), just saying that the lists I enjoy playing aren't competative. whats the point of playing if i'm not enjoying it?
As per your list suggestions:
The ale is the entire point of the second scenario provided by the ard boys GW staff. Had the first post been read, you'd understand this. The second unit of rangers was meant specifically for the ale mission, and thus teh requirement of bugman. I'd agree that taking bugman for his own stats and equipment is a waste of points. I listed him, to allow access to a second unit of rangers. As for the rangers themselves, they're not meant to survive. the idea (also clearly explained) was to allow them to live one extra turn, or fend off small skirmishing core units like harpies and the likes. They're not meant as a combat block. and they never had crossbows, so don't know where you got that idea from. also, the scree slope, would never present itself, as all terrain is handeled directly by the GW staff. Only hills and forests (unless specific scenario terrain applies). All hills are regular hills, all forests are mysterious (listed in the same section as the refrenced scenarios).
Miners, only truely work against those who stay back. and when I've have that many war machines, nobody is going to just stay back and let me shoot them. Even with the anvil, you'd be hard pressed to keep up with elves and demons, which will likely make up 70% or more of the opponents there. That is also a LOT of miners, and I would not be caught dead in a tournament circuit with a unit that size, much less a tournament as "cheese filled" as ard boys. Everyone would use the same tactic against you. They would simply outrun the miners. Anyone can outrun a dwarf. The only thing you'd have going for you would be the anvil giving you an extra movement phase, but the anvil in my list (also clearly stated) is meant solely to slow down the enemy movement in order to let the artillary do its thing.
Master engineer's purpose is also clearly stated. place him near the organ guns, or other war machines, and then jumpt out and to the side, away from machines. enemy then charges master, or flees. if it flees, i win. if it charges and kills the master (likely) it will then have two choices. Overrun off the table, or reform and get blasted by whatever warmachine the master was protecting. odds are, it's already been hit a few times, and there isn't much left anyway.
Rune of stone on the anvil lord gives the entire crew a 3+ armor save. worth it in my mind. Your suggestion of removing the shieldbearers and adding M.R.Gromril to the regular lord is completely foolhardy. M.R.Groril gives a 1+ save for xxx points. by giving him the rune of stone on shieldbearers, I get the same save, plus two extra longbeard attacks, for the cost of the rune of stone. More than acceptable payoff by anyones standards. Again, not saying shieldbearers are always the best choice, but it clearly beats your suggestion.
Lastly, I have to point out that your list looks NOTHING like the one I posted. I was asking for suggestions on how to improve the list, or how to alter slightly to make it more effective, while still maintaining the frame work and originally posted criteria. You just built your own favorite 3000 point list, completely neglecting the whole point of the thread. Thanks for that.
well now i was only trying to give my advice to a fellow dwarf even so these are my thoughts behind your criticism.
1) i dont care how you build your lords all that is down to personal preference. i dont use a combat lord anymore but when i did and i had points i gave him the shield bearers i figured that since you said your army was primarily shooting that you would want to shave some unnecessary points off your lord i know 5 points isn't a lot but hey it could matter. your lord seemed like the one to engage in a duel and stay there saving your warriors from the brunt of enemy heros or lords attacks.
2) you never mentioned which kind of rangers the bugman ones were so that's your foul not mine. i assumed that they were the crossbow ones seeing as the mighty bugman was with them i mean how fun are the crossbow great weapon rangers!
3) our lists are similar in our selection of war machines both of us have 2 cannons and 2 grudge throwers. also we both favor organ guns which a lot of others do to admittedly.
4) in 8th ed. you would be surprised to see how many guys use huge blocks now because of the stalwart rule to combat nasty units like chaos knights or black orks or high elf swordmasters. because of how the VP system works now it is to those blocks advantage, if i have five guys left in a block of 60 at the end of the game that means you get no victory points for them. i use my miners for their underground advance rule and i turtle the rest of my force on a hill or other outcropping the miners can come out of "reserve" to hit an enemy force in the flank or rear they do not deploy normally if that was the case why not just get regular warriors. on average now dwarfs can charge 10 inches with a movement of 3(6) that means they have a threat range of 16 inches they are not going to be able to outpace me while i have the anvil.
5) as for the mater engineer,.. dude it could work but it runs on two many risks for example it doesn't effect units immune to psychology or unbreakable units. (deamons which according to you share 70 percent of armies out there with high elves)
6) i just posted my list to show some of the similarities not to tell you to use that at all. im just trying give you a few words of advice take them or leave them man i just saw that no one posted anything to help you out so i thought man ill be a good guy and share some of my ideas with him maybe he will like them and use some of them to improve his competitive ard boys list. as i said just sharing some ideas with a fellow dwarf player.
7) its a shame that you chose not to take the army to ard boys dwarfs are a very solid army. with great access to powerful units and war machines.