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this is something I’ve been pondering about as of late. We dwarves are credited with having some of the best magic defense in WFB. But when you really get down to it... we're just above the par average.
with no serious upside to rune smiths other than the stupendous anti-magic ability and fairly good melee power (2 attacks and WS5) its difficult to justify the character slots for them to take on and seriously trump the magic phase.
the average rune smith tends to cost 127 points (rune of stone, sheild, 50 points of antimagic) and he does a pretty good job. but as the points size increases our overall anti-magic power tends to level out and weaken.
In the 1000 points and under phase we get enough magic defense to crush about anything without even needing a rune smith.
between 1000 and 2000 (1999) a lone rune smith with a master rune of balance will still keep things in the favour of the dwarves as a lone rune smith can hold off 3 hero level mages.
But then we hit 2k and above... and we falter. Armies are able to throw out 10 power dice and above with ease. In turn however we dwarves are left in the dust. An extra rune smith can help balance things, but only so far. 7 DD and 2 scrolls against 10+ power-dice? Its risky.
Our other option is to field a rune lord, but without an anvil of doom he's somewhat of a waste. with an anvil it imposes a play style on our army and lets face it.... puts a VERY large points sink into the army overall.
So with us dwarves being overtaken in the magic stakes is there anything for us to break even? Yes... I think there is.
Within the dwarf rune section we have the potential to generate more magic resistance than any other army in WFB!
For 60 points we can generate a total of MR4 across the army. Combine this with a master rune of grungi and we become near immune to the effects of magic missiles on our critical units, and will receive an added defense against more indirect spells like the pit of shades, the conflag of doom and vauls unmaking.
Magic standards and spare talisman slots on our characters are all open to have these runes on them and still have space for the more critical ones such as runes of battle and stoicism.
i think that this might just be our means of leveling the playing field. Dispel dice we can re-use multiple times a turn? An excellent proposition in my mind. And not too expensive.
Last edited by Arklite; April 11th, 2008 at 09:15.
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[16:19] <@Alzer> Arky's right though
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Having the Master Rune of Valays on a BSB will also stop a lot of magic. If you combine it with the Rune of ????(cant remember the name, adds +1 to dispell) you get +3 to dispel. Master Rune of Balance, Runes of Warding, rune of spelleating/spellbreaking.
It is very easy to make an army that allows no magic at 2000 points+.
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Compared with other armies our magic defence is amazingly strong.
At 2k we get at least 6 dispel dice (with the enemy having one dice stolen) and up to around 8 dice from an Anvil (again, with a dice being stolen).
For a different army to match our magic defence other armies must get a Wizard Lord and 2 Hero Wizards (which is very magic heavy). Most armies only get 2 scroll caddies (for 4 dispel dice and 4 scrolls).
Last edited by kroxigor01; April 11th, 2008 at 09:32.
I agree that without the use of runes our MR isnt as good as its cracked up to be, but surely thats as it should be? Dwarfs in themselves are inately bad at magic- which would tend to suggest dispels too- its only their natural magic resistance that is their saving grace.
It would be interesting to see a really big battle against a very magic heavy army- VC, High Elves or Lizardmen for example- both sides tricked out for a magic heavy encounter, to see how Dwarfs can perform under a serious magical barrage
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Seriously... you think &7DD and 2 Scrolls isnt enough? Your playstyle must be alien to me... My TK have just 5 Ddice at 2K and they do fine. (I know i can resurrect, but my other spells are more crucial so early resurrection is often overlooked)
And as I said in chat, Mag Res wont help against tactical magic such as TK spells, so with the less Runesmith more MR setup, it may work well against magic offensive lists, but youll screw yourself over against others with more tactical magic (eg TK, except the casket ofcourse...)
Interesting subject which should be discussed further I believe based on our experiences using different approaches.
My queries are:
Does one Runesmith (with the corespend 75points in runes), and Master Rune of Valaya provide descent suport?
But how can I justify the Master Rune of Valaya, when the BSB can carry more critical runes to help all the army? And if I get the Master Rune of Valaya, do I need a Runesmith? Seems very powerfull on it's own
Maybe the Dwarven way is better, and blow them to smithereens?
Because a lot of antimagic is good, but when the others do not bring mages, it's waste of points. While more artillery and guns can kill the rest of the enemy army.
I understand the issues Phoenix raises about tactical magic. But we can deal with that at the shooting phase.
From my point of view I believe that either we go for the Altar, and benefit from it (it's not only antimagic but a powerful boost too), for 315 points, (we need same points for 2 runesmith at the end of the day) or use some cheap items to provide some protection, and spend points on artillery to do the dirty job.
I'm sorry if I made mistakes, and I'm "confused" but I used to play Dark Elves and Empire years ago (5th Ed) and haven't played for long time.
The anti-magic debate is one that's been bouncing around in my head for some time now. The most important park of the debate centers around what I call avtive and passive magic. if you look at the recent trends in the new armies...ie. HE and VC principally, most of their best spells are now passive bennefit. By this I mean their best spells do things like raise units, give them CC or ward save buffs or they make the casting phase of the opposing player more difficult.
The second thing about many of these passive spells is that they ofen have a fairly low casting value (VC, Ogers, TK) which can be spamed with one die and will slowly eat your DD dice in a war of attrition. How do we stop these spells with purely MR...the answer is that we don't. While with Ogers its ok to let some of their spells through...a VC needs only one IoK to get through to undo all the damage you did in the previous rounds of combat.
More frightening is the continuation of the uber-magic trend in the new armies. I've seen the Daemons of Chaos book and I can tell you now I wrote a 1500pt Tzeentch list that had 27-34 PD and 16 DD. Granted the list was totally unbalanced and uber-magic heavy but I was talking to a friend and we agreed that the shear amount of spells generated could easily nuke the average foe using 4-8 DD and could actually make the list competitive. I also see this trend as likely to continue with the new Dark Elves and Mortals of Chaos books coming out as well.
This leaves us with a shifting padagrim in the way we make our armies. Runesmiths and Anvils of Doom could become nessesary choices in our lists. Make no mistake, we are leaving the days where 6-8 DD in a 2000 point balanced list is enough.
The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
I played a game recently in a tournament against a magic heavy Beastman army (13 PD) with only a runesmith and one dispel scroll to help out. Needless to say i got dominated in the magic phase, especially when he added three bound spells a turn to the mix, including one that allowed his just-arrived ambush unit to charge into combat.....
Next battle was against High Elves (14 PD) and the last against VC (cant remember, but a lot). I won the last two because my lord killed everything, but the magic phase lasted half of forever and mostly involved me removing entire units at a time. What with all the new magic heavy list (and especially all armies having access to a bunch of cheap bound items) those two additional dispel dice given to dwarfs are almost useless. At 50 points, the Rune of balance is too expensive, and those magic resistance runes arent as useful as they seem. I think we need a new edition of dwarves lol
Oi! Get off me beard!
I just returned from my local RTT (2250 points).
The only antimagic I ran was a runesmith with a MRoB, my army had one scroll.
I absolutely dominated my opponents magic phases, and the armies I played were High Elf/High Elf/Vampire Counts. The VC player (started with 14 PD) got off only two spells and one bound spell the whole game, and both normal spells that went off were irresistable force'd.
I'm beginning to work on my 'ard Boyz list for next month, and I'm considering Thorek Ironbrow (3000 pt. game) in addition to my current antimagic to really bring the hurt to opposing mages.
Don't bother having anything more than meaningless small talk on this forum, the moderators won't allow it
Anyways, while the dwarves run a lot of anti magic, certainly better then the older army books (and empire. poor empire) The newer armies can actually run some serious anti magic too. And while we need to spend an obscene amount of points to produce a dominating anti magic factor, Which is the best dice generating in the game, other armies can pick one item that makes it so they can shut down the enemy's magic much much easier. This is usually magic type specific, like the demon's magic zapper, a lot of the new army's run on a trend of one magic for the army. Even High elves use High Magic more then any other. And Vampires only use Lore of vampires. Demons only use their respective lores. So while dwarves do better dice generation, other armies can shut down the magic phase even better then we do, and that should not happen.
May the Emperor forgive you, for his servants cannot.