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  1. #1
    The Pacifist Wargamer Quick's Avatar
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    Changes to Dwarf Army Book 7th ed. Theories

    ...As prompted by recent threads and the-bearded-one.

    Simply put, what sort of changes would you like to see in the 7th edition Dwarfs Army Book that bring the Dwarfs back up to competitive levels in large-scale (2000+ pts) games?

    The traditional weaknesses of the Dwarfs have gone from "things to strategize around" to "crippling Achilles' heels" with the evolution of the game (I refrain from using the term 'Power Creep'.)

    Without changing the Dwarfs' character too much, what would you like to see in the next edition of "Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs"?

    Personally, I think the Dwarfs would be well-served with just a few of the following changes:

    Because armies can easily amass more Power Dice than any Dwarf Army could ever hope to manage, despite being the "magic denial army", establish a rule along the lines of: "Any enemy Wizard attempting to cast a spell within 12" of a Runesmith is at -1 to cast. If it's a Runelord, it's -2 to cast."

    Because of the proliferation of so many extremely fast units, something the Dwarfs cannot and should not ever have, the advantage of speed against the Dwarfs should be mitigated with a rule along the lines of, "Ranked-up Dwarf Infantry still get rank bonuses if they are charged from the flanks."

    Because Dwarfs are rarely able to run down an enemy, fleeing is not as devastating for Dwarf opponents, so a little risk should be added for those who charge a Dwarf Infantry block without bringing overwhelming force. Something along the lines of "If a Dwarf unit fails to run down the enemy, the front rank can instead make one last round of attacks before the enemy flees."

    There are other ideas, such as allowing Dwarf ranged units to wheel (but not advance) and fire. Allowing Dwarf Rangers to switch between skirmishing and ranked infantry, etc.

    I had a really cool idea when watching '300' when the Spartans locked shields and advanced, shoving the enemy backwards. Something like, "A Dwarf Infantry unit with shields and a full two ranks may sacrifice its attacks when it is charged from the front facing in order to push the enemy unit back 1" directly away from themselves." Then the Dwarfs could charge next round. Again, that would add an element of risk for an opponent charging the outnumbered and slower Dwarfs.

    I'm not saying all of these should be added and quite a few would probably prove to be tremendously unbalanced, but they give the Dwarfs a little more punch but don't change the innate Dwarf-ness of the army.

    Your thoughts?



    WHFB: Dwarfs || WH40k: Imperial Fists, Necrons || WM/H: Trollbloods || BFG: Necrons

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  3. #2
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    585 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quick View Post
    ...As prompted by recent threads and the-bearded-one.

    ......


    I had a really cool idea when watching '300' when the Spartans locked shields and advanced, shoving the enemy backwards. Something like, "A Dwarf Infantry unit with shields and a full two ranks may sacrifice its attacks when it is charged from the front facing in order to push the enemy unit back 1" directly away from themselves." Then the Dwarfs could charge next round. Again, that would add an element of risk for an opponent charging the outnumbered and slower Dwarfs.
    I feel honoured

    - It would be a great ability and make it a lot more dangerous for enemies to charge a dwarven unit. It should be tuned down a little though, because if every dwarf unit with shields could do this at anytime any turn all the time, it would be a bit too much. Perhaps something down the lines of one of these things:
    • you must buy some kind of upgrade to get this ability
    • this ability can only be used once by the unit in the game
    • roll I test ( pff.. )
    • roll a D6 ( grumble.. )
    • Only specific units will be able to use this ability, like for example, Ironbreakers
    • Needs a hero in the unit with a certain rune
    • certain rune on banner
    • something related to the unit strenght of the enemy, or their toughness. Elfs, men and goblins, for example, are easier to shove back then Ogres and trolls
    • etc?
    - Slayers to skirmishers. When in the history of slayerhood have mad death-seeking slayers formed up into units and ranks, what is safer in a battle?! And next to that it will make them a bit less vulnerable to enemy missilefire, slayers want an honorable death, not killed by a goblin firing an arrow.

    - Rangers may switch between skirmish and ranks. They are scouts and a block? That is more of a hinderance than a use. Of course rangers are a lot more disciplined than death-seeking slayers, but they still are rangers, they lay ambushes, raid greenskin camps etc. To represent that they are more disciplined in battle they can switch between rank and skirmish just like beastherds can with a max of +2 rank bonus

    - A dwarven kind of chariot. I've thought about it often, and the idea came from this concept art made by a warhammeronline artist:


    Of course, it musn't be very fast, movement of 6" I'd say, so it can keep up with the rest of the dwarven units and isn't as fast as chariots and cavalry of other races. Wellbuild obviously, toughness 5, str 5, 3+ save. And dwarfs are good engineers so they would very well be able to make a mechanised chariot without animals. To make up for the lack of beasts it has 2 normal dwarf warriors and some kind of engineer-type-dwarf on it and 2D6 or D6 + 4 or something impacthits. This would add at least a little bit more versatility to the dwarf army, while not being totally out of place and extremely fast compared to the rest of the dwarf army.
    Last edited by The bearded one; December 22nd, 2008 at 21:00.

  4. #3
    Member Grungni's Avatar
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    Personally i've been waiting for the gyro to drop some bombs haha. with screamers and their flying over a unit attack, the gyrocopter could easily be fitted with bombs. maybe along the lines of d6 str5 attacks(w/ BS of 3), on a unit that the gyrocopter moved over, instead of firing the steam gun, that would make it effective for against heavy cav. and lightly armoured troops.

    as to the aforementioned ideas the chariot could be cool, maybe more along the lines of a light tank, nohting too powerful, maybe have a minigun, with d6 str 4 hits , and d6 +1 impact hits ,and 2 engineers to make up for the lack of animal attacks.

    slayers as skirmishers would be nice, as there are unbreakable CR dont mean much to them, and would make a better flanking unit i think.

    as to the rank bonus even if flanked, maybe instead they just dont get a bonus for flanking.

    those are my thoughts, great thread by the way.

    -cheers
    G
    Beer, Pipes, and Guns... Dwarves had the right idea.

  5. #4
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    585 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grungni View Post
    as to the aforementioned ideas the chariot could be cool, maybe more along the lines of a light tank, nohting too powerful, maybe have a minigun, with d6 str 4 hits , and d6 +1 impact hits ,and 2 engineers to make up for the lack of animal attacks.
    * brain starts working *

    A light tank... :- )

    If manlings can build one, why shouldn't dwarfs be able to build something like that?! A dwarf variant of a steamtank! Though I like a dwarf chariot more, because that could be a special choice and a tank a rare. A dwarf chariot should have at least str 5 impact hits. Elf and orc chariots do str 5 impact hits too
    Last edited by The bearded one; December 22nd, 2008 at 21:51.

  6. #5
    The Pacifist Wargamer Quick's Avatar
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    The Dwarf "tank" would naturally be an adaptation of a mining machine like a tunneller. I could see that thing slowly rolling into an enemy unit and then crushing up the enemy in its rock grinder, it's crew flinging shovelfuls of burning coals on the enemy. Nasty.

    The shield-advance thing I think has merit. When the enemy declares a charge, you declare "Lock shields!" and the enemy attacks. After their attacks are resolved, you roll a Strength test against the Strength of the enemy +1 for every rank you have and if you succeed, they are pushed back an inch and there are no morale rolls. Then, the next turn, you charge.

    Maybe it's just an image I have in my head of the Dwarfs as well-trained, if not professional, Warriors who may not have the preternatural skill of an Elf or the fury of one twisted by Chaos, much marching in perfect lockstep as an inexorable advance of steel, and when they attack, everything's still in the perfect concert of a unit that has fought shoulder to shoulder for decades.

    They should know enough to be able to, and they certainly have the equipment to brace themselves for an impact.

    Slayers should definitely be skirmishers. How many of them would give up the chance at honorable death because they can't break ranks? They're berzerkers, plus, since they have no armor on, they should be able to move a little faster, right? Or, as Gimli said, "Dwarfs are natural sprinters, very dangerous over short distances." Perhaps give them a charge of 7" instead of 6".


    WHFB: Dwarfs || WH40k: Imperial Fists, Necrons || WM/H: Trollbloods || BFG: Necrons

  7. #6
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    Dwarf universal rule: Natural sprinters xD

    Could you make it a little bit more clear how that strenghttest thingy works? I'm getting confused. Do you need to throw higher as your enemies strenght or something?
    The advantage of the shield-advance doens't even need to be that you can charge with your unit the next turn, now you could have 10 strong GWwielding dwarf unit that can flank charge the enemy without any concern your bigger unit breaks.

    And there was something I thought of a long time ago... what do you see quite often on the artwork? Crows, raves, whatever the name is again, black birdies! A flying swarm unit of crows ^^

    - A new hero or upgrade: Grudgekeeper. The hero canbring one of the books of grudges that all holds have to the battle and his unit, or everyone within 6" has hatred against your opponent.
    Last edited by The bearded one; December 23rd, 2008 at 00:04.

  8. #7
    coz
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    WOW these are some cool ideas

    im only just starting to play dwarfs so i dont know how effective the rules are or are'nt

    id love some kind of tank chariot thing to satisfy my love of all things steampunk, maybe a deathroller type thing from bloodbowl.

    and a greater range on the hand guns they are better made afterall, perhaps a rule called rifling (sp?)but you have to take an engineer like the rules in mordheim.

  9. #8
    Keeper of Records and Ale King Ulrik Flamebeard's Avatar
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    1372 (x8)

    I don't like the idea that all dwarfs are "immune" to flank charges. It doesn't suit them, their current rules work well. Instead, I would like to suggest an idea I saw on Bugmans. Enemy units gain no bonus for attacking a unit of Ironbreakers in either the flank or rear. I like this one, simply because it fits the Ironbreakers fluff; they are tunnel fighters are are use to being attacked from all quarters, so they shouldn't bother about it in open air.

    I do think we need something that hits hard. Our hammer unit is, well our Hammerers. They could do with some beefing up, the general idea is drop their shields, give them Gromril Armour and have two attacks.

    A Killing Blow Rune be good too, every other army has the ability to Killing Blow by some ability, we don't.

    The Slayer's I'm unsure. While skirmish would suit them, but can you really imagine unbreakable skirmishers? The better ideas I have seen would be bring back a modified version of the Storm Of Chaos Slayer Skills, for the characters. Perhaps allow a single slayer unit as core per slayer character taken. Also, the runic tattoos for a ward vs shooting would be very nice.

    Rangers of course really need the forester rule back, they are never taken at the moment. They are pointless.

    Another suggestion is the return of move-and-fire Thunderers. Just to allow us some form of freedom, I prefer this to any form of extra range.

    And, why do our crew on war machines and missile units have light armour when all other come in heavy? I would like to see them all with heavy armour, or at least the crew.

    Miners require the "It Came From Below" rule, it just suits them a lot.

    What about thanes having 'guilds'? Would be like other powers (vampric powers etc), gives the thane a certain ability depending upon what guild they're with.


    Anyway, I cannot claim these are my ideas but I do think they have value. Look at these threads and see what you think.

    The below threads are from Bugmans, on about the same topic.

    My Personal Views On A New Dwarf Army Book - Bugmans Brewery - The Home for all Warhammer Dwarf Fans

    The Next Edition Dwarf Rulebook - Bugmans Brewery - The Home for all Warhammer Dwarf Fans


    Kuffy

  10. #9
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    certainly agree hammerers need to be beefed. They are our hardest hitting unit ( str 6 ) , but die by the dozen because they can't get the charge and only have heavy armour. They are the bodyguards of our lords, so for Grimnirs sake could use a 4+ armour and 2 attacks.

    What was the forester rule? I don't have an older armybook. Switching between skirmish and the ability to have max 2 rankbonus would be good.

    move-and-fire thunderers, an ale to that! We get flanked so easily, it has to be a bit more risky for enemies.

    Guilds..? mmm.... What about guild banners for BSB's. Or max 25 pt guildbanners for warriorunits? Engineersguild banner, goldsmith banner etc. Beerbrewerbanner ( immune to fear? Like bugmans tankard )

  11. #10
    Keeper of Records and Ale King Ulrik Flamebeard's Avatar
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    1372 (x8)

    Forester was the unit never suffered movement penalties for moving through wooded terrain, it fits their fluff. I doubt they would give them the beastherd rules, sort of takes away from the BoC.

    Guild banners? That is essentially runic banners. Guilds would work for the characters, rather than units.

    Kuffy

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