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I'm really not sure where to post this, doesn't seem to be a general idiots questions area in the forum... I've seen a lot of good advice in here, so I'll start it here and if a mod could move it somewhere more suitable I'd be greatful!
Anyway, I have a large dwarf army, pretty balanced all around but I always get mashed in combat, when I win games it's generally bacause I've blown the enemy to bits, which is dependant on me getting the first turn. Most of the armies I've collected have been either balanced or really shooty so I want to go for a combat orientated force.
First, any tips for a Dwarf force sorted for some head bashing?
And if not Dwarf, who else, not Dark Elves, every man and his dog plays them in my local GW, not a big fan of WoC to be honest either.
I would like the army to be pretty competitive as I want to use it in tournaments, got a fair few lists already that are just for fun, so it would be nice to have one other than my big win/catastrophic loss Dwarfs. To be honest, I suspect it's my ineptitude rather than the army that causes the losses... But there are a couple of guys that use really cheesey/over the top lists every game and aren't good winners, so I would like to wipe the smug grin off their faces/stop the victory dance!
Last edited by campbellrae1; July 20th, 2011 at 09:23.
First. How many points do you want it to be?
I'll assume 2000 and suggest a list and walk your through it.
Dwarf Lord. Rune of Fury x2
Rune of Cleaving
Shield, Rune of Stone
Rune of Warding 233p
Strollaz' rune. 155p
Rune of Snorri Spangelhelm
Rune of Cleavingx2 130p
Master rune of Balance
Rune of Spellbreaking. 145p
20 Quarellers FC, GW. 285p
30 Warriors FC, GW. 325p
15 Warriors Shields. Mus 140p
20 Hammerers FC Master rune of Grungni. 320p
Cannon. Rune of Forging. 125p
This list has a lot of focus on CC.
The hammerers are placed in the middle of your line.
Quarellers cover one flank. Most opponents won't realize that they're actually a combat unit and send a mediocre infantry unit at them. When you're about to get charged, you reform into 5x4 and they've all of a sudden got to face a WS4, T4, STR 5 unit. Fully ranked and with a standard. That will give most pause. Or alternatively, you can march them along with your battleline. A stand and shoot is very aswell.
The horde of Warriors is next to the hammerers. You place the BSB in this unit. Covering your other flank is the Gyro and small regiment of Dwarf Warriors.
The small regiment of Warriors, I mainly use for charging flanks or baiting charges, then fleeing. With the musician, they should have no trouble rallying afterwards.
The Gyro has (in my opinion) gotten a lot stronger in the new edition. Before, the reason for having one was to march block the enemy. It can still fulfill that role, but its Steam gun has become VERY powerful. If you manouver the gyro into position next to a ranked up infantry unit with T3, you will hit everyone even partially under the flame template. If you place if right, you can hit so many models you won't believe it. 7-8 models dead per turn is not unrealistic. You could drop the 15 Warriors to fit in another Gyro. It is very effective.
Your heroes go into the horde of Warriors. Using shields instead of Greatweapons on the horde and Great weapons instead of shields on the little regiment also works well if you want the flank charges.
I have a friend who plays Dwarfs, and I've found that a big block of Longbeard Rangers with some Hammerers to back them up is a pretty mean unit to face. If you want every unit to be CC-competent, some Quarrelers with Great Weapons will do the trick, while still providing you with some good ol' Dwarf shooting. Don't forget your Runesmith with Master Rune of Balance and Rune of Spellbreaking, either - most dedicated CC armies also pack buffing, and you have to make damn sure that doesn't go off.
Hmm, I cannot give you advice regarding Dwarfs, but I can give you my opinion regarding CC armies.
IMHO, I believe the three strongest CC armies are WoC, Daemons and (arguably) HE.
Every unit in the WoC army hits hard and reliably, and with supporting magic, they are (again in my opinion) the BEST close combatants in 8th ed. Deathstar-type units in Daemons are also very good, and will give you headaches. Finally, HE's huge units of White Lions are DEADLY combatants: a bucketful of ST6 ASF attacks is no joke for ANY army in the game.
I'd like to point out that DE's hatred is also one of the best "racial abilities" on the game, but since you clearly stated you don't want no deal with the khainites I'll leave them out of the question.
Hope it helps a bit. Best regards !
But again, i have succesfull CC oriented Armies. (usually i go balanced a bit in favor of CC)
An example for 2500 pts
Here is a list
Rune Lord AnviloDoom spell breaking 343
Thane bsb 1+AS 4+ ws 160
Thane +1S +1A MofChallenge 137
Warriors 24 GW FC 265
Warriors 25 GW FC 275
Warriors 25 GW FC 275
Hammerers 24 FC 318
Quareller Rangers 10 140
Miners 9 musician 104
Cannon Forging burning 130
Organ Gun 120
As you see this list is pretty much balanced. Warriors and Hammerers pack lots of strength in cc. Runelord gives lots of spell protection, which is important you might see you rank and file units get smothered if you don't bring some protection.
Anvil, miners and Rangers gives lots of movement advantages.
Cannons hit big targets, heavy armored units. Gyrocopter, organ gun protect flanks.
This army lacks Hero Lord attack power and Magic banners. But you will have lots of CC units 3 GW warriors and Hammerers and bait units (rangers miners and gyro).
If you are going for 2000 list you might drop runelord but equip your runesmith with Spellbreaking and master rune of balance. In my game group, since 8 edition i have lost a couple of games. Note that i do not like going machine heavy, then everyone starts to say dwarfs are cheese .
About strong CC armies which can hit hard we can list as.
Warriors of Chaos.
Choosen's and Warriors of Chaos are very durable hard hitters. Especailly with Tzeentch they usally have 5+ ward saves in CC and usually survive most shooting attacks. And buffed to another level with War Altar. (i fear them with Dwarfs)
Frenzy Marauders hordes with great weapon are good also but not without a solution.
High elves; if they can survive shooting onslaught they usually attack first and with new rules 90 percent reroll attacks. (with dwarfs i do not usually fear them)
Lizardmen and Saurus infantries. Tough, strong, lots of attacks. (i fear them with Dwarfs)
Two Lance Brettonia charge it can be devastating be carefull.
and Some orc setups like lots of savage orcs, normal orcs black orcs, biguns....
In order, in my opinion:
1. Warriors of Chaos
2. High Elves
6. Dark Elves
“The ultimate philosophical question, “Am I human or machine” is answered by many people, “I don’t care, as long as I am”
- Myron Krueger
High Elves? lol. Without their Archmage + Book of Hoeth cheese, I don't trust them in the slightest. At the end of the day, they're still T3. All of the T4+ armies will hand them their @$$ in a man-to-man CC fight, even if they bring Swordmasters (which are expensive, though obviously not by WoC standards).
I have to say I'd rank them thusly:
1. Warriors of Chaos (no surprise there)
2. Beastmen (Hatred with a possibility of Frenzy for most of their troops, access to the good offensive equipment, and most importantly, they're potentially the most numerous quality CC troops)
3. Ogres (Impact Hits, superior M values, and now they have lowered the prices and added quality support units)
4. Dwarfs (Great Weapons on my entire I2 army? Yes, please!)
5. Orcs & Goblins (Savage Orc Big 'Un's and Black Orcs, plus Choppas? Sure!)
6. Lizardmen (Saurus blocks may be slow and rather poorly equipped given that they're slow, but it's hard to argue with those stats)
rothgar, I think that you are seriously underestimating HE. Even without buffs, try surviving two hordes of 30 white lions, and a block of 50 LSG backed up by 2 10 man SM flank units, and that is even before you add in any of the HE mages and their buffs which you can't just write off since their magic is so effective.
2 Hordes of White Lions is 900 points - that's a lot of points that most armies just don't have lying around. Throw 2 units of 10 SM's on there and that's barely legal for 2400 points - you might even have to go to 2500 points depending on whether you give them any command (and good luck maneuvering a Horde without Musicians...). HE mages can be sniped or singled out in close combat - if he's bringing 3 Hordes, he's not bringing a dedicated mage bunker, and vice versa. They can't bring the numbers other guys can bring at those points totals, and at the end of the day they're still T3 Elves - after they're done attacking they will die.
I don't consider them an elite CC army - I consider them an elite magic army with solid CC ability. That's how they're going to beat you - if the Mage survives to ply his craft and the White Lions get to you, well, you're in trouble. If you manage to put down their Mage and make it a straight CC slugfest, I see them losing against the dedicated CC armies I mentioned above, though they'll take their pound of flesh first. Believe me, I don't consider them a bad army - they're far from it. But they're not an army that counts CC as their bread and butter - they're far too good at magic for that.
Last edited by rothgar13; September 28th, 2011 at 23:28.