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I was about to post on another thread but with this question thrown in, but then i thought that it could warrant a thread of its own.
I'm a new dwarf player (and hence to this forum) and so if this issue has been discussed recently before then feel free to send me packing!
My question is this; Where do ppl stand on the idea of gunlines?
When i started out as a dwarf player the one thing i wanted to make sure of was that i didn't build a gunline. Although when i was writing my army list i found that it is very hard not to do so with dwarfs! I personally don't like the idea of gunlines, and would be reluctant to play someone who simply sits behind his core troops made entirely of thunderers/handgunners, and watches his opponent get blown apart.
At my gaming club recently i overheard a man boasting about how he would take care of his opponents ogre gorger - "It turns up on a table edge and i turn a couple of cannons around at it and thank you i'll have 100 victory points"
Although i realise that it is entirely within the rules of the game, and that a similar argument could be made against magic heavy armies, but its something about gunlines that i feel takes the fun out of the game somewhat.
I was wondering what other people thought about this, and whether people think that with empire and dwarf armies it kind of goes with the territory.
Of course i like cannons as much as the next man!
The frustrating thing about gunline armies is there's really no way to always counter it. Where high magic armies have a chance for miscast, or being dispelled, gunlines are always going to 'go off' if they are within range. And because of the very restictive movement rules for Fantasy, if you deploy a sluggish unit (like block infantry) directly across from a gunline, you'll probably spend a good chunk of the game reforming and moving so you don't hurl yourself into your opponent's missile troops.
So when fighting high levels of archers/rifles, your opponent is faced with three decisions:
a. Run at my opponent at top speed, hoping for the least ammount of shooting casualties, and hoping that I have enough when I get there to break the gunline, plus any supporting units.
b. Spend the whole game redeploying so I don't do what I mentioned in decision a.
c. Stand back as long as I can out of range, and hope for some sort of lame victory points denial victory, and maybe grabbing some table quarters on the last turn.
It's much more acceptable in 40K for gunline armies because nearly every army can do it, plus, it's futuristic warfare, battles should be decided by firepower.
Whereas in Fantasy (medieval warfare) archery should be used to disrupt your opponent to give you an advantage in the close combat aspect, not totally decimate the other army.
That's my two bits.
Quite true. (Those gorgers are TOUGH though)Originally Posted by MobiusPrime
Shooting can be unreliable sometimes and when chaos armies are in CC vs. shooty armies the gunline can be in serious trouble.
generally a full shooting force is at its most effective in the 1500 points and under range. ive found the higher up you go the less effective it gets with a greater chance of missfire (more machines = more chances) and more enemy units to kill. though you could potentially keep up with the number of hostile units it is unlikly. ive had conciderable sucess against hostile shooting armies with my dwarf combat list and found that with tough enough troops it is very easy to get up to them. other tactcs ive found to work (against my shooty list which i have long since stopped using) are the skink/skirmisher walls or the RAF brettionians/flying cicus.
no army in wfb is unbeatable the best thing to do is focus on its weak points with your strong (and dwarf infantry can pawn most things in my opinion hands down :shifty: )
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[16:19] <@Alzer> Arky's right though
[16:20] <@Kaiser-> I know he is.
[16:20] <@Kaiser-> He usually is.
[16:20] <@Kaiser-> Sometimes it's intentional.
[00:01] <+zubus> i love you, ya skirt wearin nothern monkey! ^_^
Good point, and the enemy have more elite troops. I love playing my roughly 500pt 'quick skirmish' list (I'm not going into any detail so bear with me):Originally Posted by Arklite
Thane - rune of flight
Small unit of Warriors
Small unit of Thunderers
Two bolt throwers.
Its really effective and I know you, Arklite, used to use this list (from a battle report?).
"Whereas in Fantasy (medieval warfare) archery should be used to disrupt your opponent to give you an advantage in the close combat aspect, not totally decimate the other army."
Tell that to the French Knights that attacked Edward III and Henry V....
Concentrated armor-piercing missile weapons ( the longbow) effectively ended the style of medieval warfare. Seige warfare was equally effected by cannon requiring the abandonment of square (and eventually round) towers and long straight walls for the 18th century creation of the 'star' fort by the French.
A gunline, although as boring as a charging Khornate army. is an effective WHFB tactic. Thunderers can do what the Bretonian longbowmen SHOULD be able to do: kill heavily armored knights.
There is a reason soldiers stopped wearing armor: gunpowder.....
In a world of orcs, lizardmen, skaven and undead i'm pretty sure we shouldn't be too bothered about historical accuracy.
I just want to have a fun game, and however effective the tactic is i think it just gets a bit too boring. I think people should be looking to make armies full of character and diversity.
Plus is it me or is the guy who sits behind an empire gunline always really fat?
I have no problem at all playing against gunline armies, the onyl real battle I won was against what can be considered a gunline army. the main thing that's important is good CC units behind a cheap screen. I used saurus that were screened by skinks.
It doesn't really matter to me how much of a power gamer some1 is when they make their army list to me. As long as they don't cheat making it. The thing that bugs me is ppl cheating in game or being persistant he is right about a rule when you show them they're wrong in the rule book. Of course this is my view having never play against a skyre SAD list. But so far the dwarf gunline doesn't bother me.
The only problem i would have with using a cheap screen is that their ld is usually low. One hit from the flame cannon and they all go running for cover.
Armies with a lot of firepower are designed to pretty much disable his opponents force before it reaches his side of the table, so if a gunline couldn't handle a few skinks i would be worried. Also don't forget that the anvil, flame cannon, cannon and grudge thrower can all shoot OVER skinks.
Cheap screens are indeed a viable option,but i think the general tactic on beating these kinds of lists is different for each army, not all of them have good screening units
Plus why would you want to sacrifice those lovely beautiful skinks??:cry:
i dont even mind playing against skyre SAD, because the three armies i play can all handle it. with lizzies you just use a bunch of scouting skinks, and charge the jezzails, etc. with ogres, they are fast, have lots of wounds and have gnoblers for screens. plus i love gorgers, and they can always take out the flame cannon or somn in one round of cc. with dwarves, i just out-cheeze the little rats, and play the shooty game. Since my shooters are more durable than his, i find that this often leads me to victory.
therefore, i think that most armies have an answer to gunlines, and i therefore dont mind them at all. However they are boring to play with, so i would rarly field one.