Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I my newest fantasy army is the dwarfs and I haven't had anygames yet with them, the reason being that all the people I play say that they are overpowered. The following comments have been made:
They have too many dispel dice for a non-magic army
Their guns are too powerful (This is ironic as my fledgeling army is mostly CC and they often play a shooty Empire army and don't have any problems. They also don't have a problem with my pure shooty Wood Elf army)
They have too many magic points for characters.
A basic warrior can be kitted out with a truck load of items great weapons, hand weapons, sheild and use any at will.
Slayers are too powerful.
Armour save is too high
My Army is:
1 Organ Gun
1 Master Engineer
(Like I have said, I have just started so I have only bought a small force but before I finish building it I would like to prove that they are a fair army otherwise I may have to abandon them for now.)
I've got 3000 or so points of Dwarves and it is possible to make some
nasty lists if you put your mind to it. They're not overpowered though, IMHO.
They have strengths and weaknesses like any army.
1) They have very good basic infantry. Their stat line is very good for the cost
and, as you said, they can be armed with lots of different weapon/armour choices.
Their infantry has to be good - it's their main troop type. They have no
cavalry or skirmishers.
2) Toughness 4 with good armour and high leadership. It takes a lot of effort
to kill them, and even if you do manage to kill enough to force a panic test, they
will probably pass it!
Again, they need this - They are very slow. It will take them time to
get to grips with the enemy, even with the relentless rule.
Also, they will rarely get the initial charge, so they have to be able to survive
the enemy's charge and then fight back.
3) Good Missile Weapons. Dwarves are one of the best armies for missile fire
(on a par with Wood Elves and Empire). Although their ballistic skill is average,
all their weapons are strength 4 or more. This means that the dwarves can
deploy enough firepower to force the enemy to come to them. Without this,
the enemy could just refuse to engage and the dwarves would never win a game!
4) Good specialist troops. They have some funky infantry choices: slayers,
ironbreakers, miners, etc. They need these to fill in "missing" troop types in their
army list. Each of them has their own strengths an weaknesses. Slayers are
indeed awesome in combat - but they die very quickly as they have no armour.
5) Magic resistance. In small to medium games they usually have enough
dispel dice to shut down armies that are not deliberately magic-heavy.
In larger games, they tend to suffer more.
Unless they happen to take an anvil of doom, they have no magic of their own,
so they have to be better in the other phases (missile, melee) in order to
6) Yes, you can come up with some awesome Rune combos, but they aren't
cheap, and they're your only access to magical effects. You can have more
points than most in magic items, but your heros and lords can't ride mounts
7) Your troops are Slooooooooooooow. This means it's difficult for your troops
to catch routing enemies, reach important terrain before the enemy, and
even react to an event on one side of the battlefield.
To deal with your army specifically, it seems fine to me! A few too many thunderers
for my taste, but you've only got one piece of artillery. I'd drop the engineer and
use a tooled up thane myself.
Just my 2p, enjoy your dwarves and good luck playng with them!
well yes Dwarves are kick ass but there is a few things you need to point out to these people....
Ask anyone what the most important phase is in fantasy.....its movement, Dwarves movement value of 3 is a large glearing weakness, yes it can supported with anvil and a certain rune...but Dwarves Suck in movement phase.
Dwarves at the moment are suffering from the 'Army of the month' syndrome in that gamesworkshop sales staff and white dwarf magazines, Brag and glamourise the new Dwarf Army book, pointing out all its strengths and COOL rules in an Effort to sell as much Dwarf stuff as possible. Hence people hear all this stuff and start complaining that the army is cheesy/beardy.
Unfortunately because of the way Gamesworkshop release there army books sporadically over a period of a few years...Balance in games of 40k or fantasy are thrown out of the window. The new Dwarf army Book and wood elf army book look as if they have been geared toward the release of 7th edition...sooo these armies are most probably more powerfull than other armies that have been waiting a while for a newer up to date army books.
i can bet a million gold pieces that when the newer Empire book gets released, or vampire counts get there mitts on a new army book...the same people will be moaning about overpowerd units etc unless they collect empire or VC :shifty:
Army of the heavens, my army waits in hell
To battle on the earth, for all the souls who fell
Oh my....so many things to say against this....but okay just to answer the comments the why I see them.
Too many dispel dice: Not at all. We get 2 extra dices no matter what. That would be the most reasonable thing to do as we dont have any wizards at all. We cant just make a fireball and throw it at a unit. We have to pay over 300 points to get that (Runelord + anvil).
Plus, they also answer their own question. A lot of dispel dice for a none-magic army...well as we dont have magic as such we have to get something to protect us as we cant really get back at them, in general, before CC.
Our guns are too powerfull: Well they are guns. What to expect. Wether you like it or not, it is pretty hard to stop a bullet. So naturally it has a few pluses. On the other hand, they have been made so its move-or-fire. That means we would have to stand still just to get an somewhat good shot. Remember they get some minuses like...over half range, if we have been moving (which we mostly have to) and if we hit skirmishers. So I say its pretty fair.
Too many magic points: That is not quite true. Our runes are very special and it takes a lot of effort to put a rune on an item. In other words, we cannot just take lots and lots of runes on our items. That is exactly what other races also cant, so also this makes perfect sense.
A basic warrior is to kitted: Well again what to expect. We are small and solid. Gotta protect our small bodies. And its not fat we hide under our tiny armour
We also hit last like, almost every time so I think its pretty fair we stand out a bit.
Slayers are too powerfull: Heh well then they dont know how to deal with them (let them figure it out themselves :yes Just think about it. They dont have any armour save (they are slayers) They are unbreakable (they are slayers) They are pretty crazy which gives them a faster attack and a bit more knowlegde in handling weapons. Fluffwise its perfect as all they really wants to do is to die by the hands of a big and bloody creature so why run and why should a standard unit have the honor of killing them.
Armour save is too high: Again we are small, solid and gotta protect our selves. In addition to that, as you might know, we dont have that great a movement face so it somewhat equals it.
All in all they have to realize that dwarves are not like other races. We have lived in mountains. A lot of our work is dangerous and so we have to protect our selves. Why not use the minerals we find to make hard rock armour or deadly weapons. We are always in battle as we want to get the strongholds back that are rightfully ours.
So I just think they should think twice before saying dwarves are too overpowered. Every race has its pluses and minuses so its all about making the right strategi.
Hope that would make your opponents think twice about fighting against you in mighty clashes or small missions
While I wouldn't say that all Dwarf armies are overpowered, I definitely have noticed certain aspects of the Dwarf army which I do think might have been done hastily.
First off, people complaining about Slayers. Are you sure they are complaining about regular Slayers, or the special Slayers army from the SoC book? The Slayers army is in my opinion, utterly rediculous. Regular slayers have their ups and downs, and I see no problem with them.
My main problem with Dwarves are your very high-stat troops, and the runic combos available. Especially those runes which can go on war machines. S7 bolt throwers? My chariot hurts! The disguise rune, and the immolation rune, (depending on the opponent of course), can make killing the machines very difficult.
If I know I am going up against a Dwarf army, I have to really consider not taking any chariots, and I know that I will need one item which can ignore armor saves, as there could be a Dwarf Lord out there completely immune to high strength attacks.
My problems with Dwarven elite infantry are that they are *very* cheap for their abilities, and they can be taken in such small units! I would kill to be able to take chaos warriors in units of 5. You can more than make up for your slow movement by taking multiple smaller units. Panic is a negligable worry as your leadership is high.
I haven't faced the anvil of doom, but I have heard litanies of hatred preached against the thing. I can't really comment on it first hand.
The extra base dispel dice is a bit overpowered in low point games. I think that the number of free dice generated should be based on army size. Perhaps 1 free DD for every 1000 points. This would still grant you 2 extra dice in a 2000 point battle, where I don't find the extra dice a problem. However this would make it viable to spend points on a wizard against dwarves in a 1000-1500 point game.
The Hierarchy Chaotica: Kinky Sex > Change > Disease > Blood
98% of the population actually believes these stupid statistics. If you're part of the 2% of humanity with a brain, put this in your profile.
*sigh* the lements of people afraid of a challenge.we dont get spell casters what so ever. the only way we can get dispell if via runesmiths/lords which are pretty damn expencive compared to every other armies spell casters which give them the advantage of magic. as a counter ballence we get an extra 2 basic dispell dice.They have too many dispel dice for a non-magic armyTheir guns are too powerful (This is ironic as my fledgeling army is mostly CC and they often play a shooty Empire army and don't have any problems. They also don't have a problem with my pure shooty Wood Elf army)
are guns are actually weaker than their empire counter parts. are cannons have less range and only cause d3 wounds to targets compared to d6 on empire cannons. our warmachines are reliable not powerful.ill assume this is for magic items. again we do not get magic. as a pay off we get incredibly powerful weapons and equipment. we also get alot more of it.They have too many magic points for characters.we have M3 (slowest in the game) and I2. we will never hit first (exept against zombies or great weapons) and we will almost never get the charge. this makes huge differences on combat.A basic warrior can be kitted out with a truck load of items great weapons, hand weapons, sheild and use any at will.they have no armour!!!! shoot them!!!! seems simple to me!!!Slayers are too powerful.average dwarf save: 3+Armour save is too high
average bretonian save: 2+
average Chaos save: 3+
average kislivite save: 3+
average empire save 4+ (1+ on knights)
yeah.. too high.... right....a very nice and ballenced list. only two shooting units and 3 decently solid combat units.My Army is:
1 Organ Gun
1 Master Engineer
who ever is saying this has clearly not played against dwarves before. we may have been powered up alot in the update but our main weaknesses are still there. if anything amplified. dwarves suffer from low movment. the lowest in the game. so you allmost allways get to choose to fight on your terms against them.on this note the anvil has alot of hype behind it. its a tremendous point sink which is unreliable at best. with 50% chance of missfire (using it as it should be, with nothing but anceint powers) it makes it a real two bladed sword. the main reason its hated is because its unblockable by antimagic. but one spell per turn that you cant block is apparently unfair compared to the 19 powerdice high elf army.I haven't faced the anvil of doom, but I have heard litanies of hatred preached against the thing. I can't really comment on it first hand.
spambot kill tally: 79
[16:19] <@Alzer> Arky's right though
[16:20] <@Kaiser-> I know he is.
[16:20] <@Kaiser-> He usually is.
[16:20] <@Kaiser-> Sometimes it's intentional.
[00:01] <+zubus> i love you, ya skirt wearin nothern monkey! ^_^
Cheers for all your help and I hope that they listen to what you have to say.
One of the big tests of the power of an army is the number of podium finishes that they have in tournaments. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but out of about 20-30 tournaments that I have seen the results of, Dwarfs have only finished in the top three once.
Wood Elves 2/0/1
Orcs & Goblins 0/1/0
Next Army - Tomb Kings
this isnt too good of a test really.. this is a test of potential.
All that shows is the fact that skaven ( sad... ) , brets, wood elves ( not as muhc the the other 2 ) have the potential to make cheesy unbeatable armys of doom.
when all ios said and done, currently playing a balenced army, dwarfs are a powerful enemy. but, having said that, thier are down sides. besides, if the people you play with play balenced forces ( which it doesnt sound like they do ) this wouldnt have a problem against other balenced forces, as they are usaully more mature players, past the stage of wanting to win at all costs.
said my bit, good luck to you, that is one of the most balanced ( and reliable ) army lists ive seen for a while.. no bolt throwers ! not a slayer list, not anvil of almightly winnage..
vampire counts ( under construction)
am thinking about starting it again
currently working on :
second unit of skellys
most likely thing next :
another box of skellys .....
I wouldnt say 'overpowered'.. however i would say their disadvantages dont even come close to outweighing their advantages..
Im an elven player.. yes dwarves are slow.. and i will always be the one charging with my quick elves.. but it never matters.. the fact is that my S3 infantry cant punch through T4 with a 3+ save.. GW made them TOO resistant to damage to balance out the lack of speed. So theres no disadvantage to dwarves there. Yeah a brick wall cant move..but you cant knock it down with a sword either..
Their shooting isnt too powerful.. its just too cheap. They can take a bolt thrower for 45 points.. and my dark elf bolt throwers cost 100.. My opponent put a rune on his bolt thrower to give it S7.. which f*cked my chariot on turn 1 before it even had time to get stupid lol.. a chariot worth 100 points killed by a 45pt bolt thrower..
Ive also had 9 corsairs killed by 1 organ gun in 1 shot once.
& 9 spearmen killed by 1 stome thrower in 1 shot.
both weapons cost around the same as the troops they killed in *1* damn turn..
Not having any magic is their only disadvantage in my opinion.. but all the extra dispell dice mean magic isnt a *weakness* for them either.. I think if you took away the extra 2 dispel dice so that magic was an all-round weakness (cant use it AND cant stand it), then dwarves would be fair.
& the leadership is just crazy.. i dont mind if its good.. but when basic infantry have the same Ld as my LORDS.. then its overkill.
I do like a challenge, but when you need Great luck to kill more than 1 guy with 20 repeater crossbow shots... it just takes the fun out of the game..
Thats my two cents
Last edited by Manu_Forti; June 14th, 2006 at 06:59.
Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
W L D
21 5 5