cannons or the two bolt throwers. - Warhammer 40K Fantasy

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  1. #1
    Bearded Ninja Arklite's Avatar
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    cannons or the two bolt throwers.

    This is something Iíve been pondering over the last while with me building the 3k lists Iím wanting to use for the librarium online 2k7 meet.

    On one hand we have the tried and tested 2 bolt throwers. Cheap and reliable.

    On the other we have the powerful and accurate cannon.

    The problem? It looks like they are doing the same job in this list Iím making.

    the war machines i currently sport are 2 flame cannons and a Grudge thrower. all three of these are powerful template sporting war machines designed to cause mass swaths of carnage onto enemy formations with their templates. (these war machines are also non in this list >=] just so you know).

    what the list is missing is something for the more finesse edged shots. this leaves me with the cannon and the two bolt throwers.

    bolt throwers. Good ballistic skill once engineers are added and they will fire every single turn. against their favour however is the low strength (comparatively) and the chance that they might not make it all the way through an enemy unit. they also suffer from being BS reliant. they suffer all the normal mods for shooting and are vulnerable to enemy units employing such anti shooting powers (damn elves and their skirmishers *grumble*).

    the cannon doesn't suffer from things like range and has the strength (consistently) to smash entire ranks of troops in a fell swoop or turn chariots into matches without any runic support. While my other option, a bolt thrower with runes and supporting engineer, total up at 5 points short of a basic cannon anyways. A runed cannon comes out at 5 points more than 2 BT's with engineers and at least 10 points less than a runed pair.

    The cannon has a greater chance of actually hitting if I get the guess right and will cause more damage against the rank and file. The BT's have the potential to cause more damage and given enough time probably would out class the cannon as the enemy get closer. But Iím still not convinced either way.

    Suggestions for a general? Free beer with every answer.


    Also an appology for any... confusing sections. In the middle of a hayfever attack at the moment and should be able to give real responces by tommorow



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  3. #2
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    I think the appropriate comparison is:

    Cannon with Rune of Forging V. 2 bolt throwers with unit engineers. Rune of forging is the most common upgrade I'm aware of for cannons, although I suppose it isn't strictly necessary. I worked out the math on bolt throwers, you could get 3 with engineers, or 4 without for the same price. The three with engineers have a higher chance of hitting everything except Large Targets at close range. From this, I decided I'd always rather have engineers on my bolt throwers than not.

    Assuming this comparison, here's why I'd go for the bolt throwers. They are:

    - Harder to kill, with 2 war machine units, so you are more likely to be shooting at least with one after the enemy attacks your war machines.
    - Higher kill potential, due to more shots.
    - The ability to engage multiple targets.
    - The ability to take anti-chariot wounds (negating a large cannon advantage).
    - The ability to cover multiple firing lanes, where a single cannon could have blocked LOS.
    - Not guess weapons, so you have the option of firing ranged infantry BEFORE you fire your bolt throwers. Infantry often have limited LOS since they can't turn and fire, so you don't want to blast the only targets the infantry can see with your siege weapon unless they've already missed.

    The only real advantage the cannon has in my mind is superiority at shooting enemy war machines/multi-wound monsters. But it really needs a master engineer to excel at this role, and that makes it prohibitively expensive, IMO.

    Cheers!
    -Koosh
    Arena of Death Champion: Nexim of the Guldskullz Tribe. Fear my wrath!

  4. #3
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    hey for the bolt thrower... why not use the rune of penetration. it increases the strength by 1 up to ten. if you put two on both war machines and added one more rune to each so you can have the first rank take s8 the second take s7 add on an engineer and that may be a powerful shot.

  5. #4
    Keeper of Records and Ale King Ulrik Flamebeard's Avatar
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    1372 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Woad View Post
    hey for the bolt thrower... why not use the rune of penetration. it increases the strength by 1 up to ten. if you put two on both war machines and added one more rune to each so you can have the first rank take s8 the second take s7 add on an engineer and that may be a powerful shot.
    That's true, but then they go from cheap war machines to rather expensive. If I recall two RoPenetrating will make it's cost 95pts per machine. Then add on the engineer and it's over a hundred, do this for both and well... it's expensive. The only rune I would give is a single RoPenetration - for chariot killing and so forth, others tend to be a waste in my opinion.

    KU

  6. #5
    Junior Member Dr.Sideburns's Avatar
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    I'd say go for a bolt thrower and put a RoPenetration on it. You can even take two as one Special choice and 90 points, so they're cheaper than the cannon.
    Why are there six pedals if there's only four directions?!
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  7. #6
    Consumate professional Sir Theobold the Lame's Avatar
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    280 (x8)

    in a 3k list id be tempted to try and fit in all three- 2 basic bolt throwers with engineers and a cannon- thereby getting the best of both worlds- the reliability of the BTs with the destructive power of the cannon.

    If its a choice you need though i vote for the BTs, i like the fact you can rely on them to hit most turns, and against low toughness troops or single flyers/monsters etc i like their accuracy- i like to use a Master engineer too, to protect the machines and ensure your almost always going to make the BS throw
    PLAN CLAN MAN!!

    He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man- S. Johnson

  8. #7
    Son of LO MouseC112's Avatar
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    106 (x6)

    pends

    2k List
    - I am a fan of having at least 1 str 7 bolt thrower and at least 1 cannon. However, pending who i'm facing I drop the cannon for a 2nd str 6 bolt thrower. The str 7 bolt thrower to kill chariots in 1 hit or easily kill a those large targets like dragons where with an engineer upgrade your probably hitting on 2's a lot. Cannons are to decimate rank and file or bunny hop and kill those mages.

    3k List
    -2 Bolt throwers and 1 cannon as you have the point room easily and supported by quarrellers they will work wonderfully.
    40K-Beakies(9-14-4),Guard(4-7-2),Orks(34-12-11). FANTASY-Dwarves(15-6-7),Beasts (14-14-1), Skaven (17-17-10) DoC (6-1-2). CYGNAR (28-15-1)

  9. #8
    Senior Member Darguth's Avatar
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    I would also probably try to go for all 3 myself. The bolt throwers are, in all actuality, the superior war machine unless (as has been mentioned) you're firing at high toughness, multi-wound models.

    I, personally, just love cannons. I lovez 'em. But that doesn't mean they are the best choice. In friendly games I often take them where it is probably more tactically appropriate to go with bolt throwers.

    In a 3,000pt list though, you should have room for all three and the cannon could be highly valuable if you see a dragon-mounted champion facing you or a character of similar strength like Archaon etc. In those cases, I'd rather have the cannon.

  10. #9
    /botnobot/ DavidWC09's Avatar
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    1283 (x8)

    Free beer. Yummm.

    I like the bolt throwers and that's what I'm using. Bought my second one yesterday.

    Artillery dice are much less reliable than a bolt thrower with a master engineer attached.
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  11. #10
    Consumate professional Sir Theobold the Lame's Avatar
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    280 (x8)

    After a recent Dwarf v. Dwarf battle i have to say 2 cannons in one list are a daunting propersition- they carved through my Ironbreakers with ease, and my paltry one bolt thrower could do diddly squat against them...im starting to change my mind
    PLAN CLAN MAN!!

    He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man- S. Johnson

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