Mech Eldar List Building

[FartsMcGee]

A couple of quick point about a few things. DA's in a falcon may NOT claim objectives unless they disembark, only dedicated transports have the luxury of sitting on an objective with troops.

Crack shot for fire pike'd fire dragon tank hunter exarchs: I don't know how much valkyrie IG you guys face off against but in my neck of the woods these players are creeping up everywhere. A huge part of their strategy relies on picking up a cover save and dropping troops off. Likewise with tau with their obscure everything rules, the crack shot makes the fire dragons a real threat to every tank, plus with the pike it turns the unit into a str 9 AP1 unit with an effective range of 24" or 18" + 12" if they are in a falcon/waveserpent. If you play the dragons at range you give up the melta dice (which is a shame) but you can cook valkyries and hammerheads at will, while still giving yourself the benefit of cover saves and taking theirs away. Think of the amount of area denial you provide yourself with an anti-tank unit that can nail something with str 9 AP 1 at 24" and never afford it a save.

Now before everyone says that dragons work best as a cheap unit and the goal of the wave serpent/falcon is to get em close cause we're mech and that's what we do, think about it this way, how often does your dragon strategy involve a suicide mission? And how many other units in your army would you ever send on a suicide mission?

Playing eldar, especially mech eldar, its pretty important that we not get stuck in a point swap mentality. Sure it's an easy comparison and a useful tool in figuring out what pulls its weight and what doesn't. But when people get ready to swap 96 points for more points on the other side just cause it costs em points we tend to ignore the fact that we play a strict role army, and its still 5th ed! Crap low point units win games! Every unit has a very specified function, and when we willingly give up arguably our most specialized unit on a suicide mission i feel like its akin to a carpenter saying, "Well, that screwdriver did something yesterday, but i'm gonna leave it at home today cause i still got my hammer and saw, and well both those hit harder."

My two cents on the Banshee exarch. Personally i think mirrorswords ain't so hot. Cool model btw, but the aspect of the banshee isn't horde control its our hard counter to specialized high save units. It's not uncommon for some of these units to have higher toughness, such as with the mark of nurgle, biker units, 2+ tyrants and so on. As such, the mirrorswords don't enhance in this role as much as the executioner, extra dice don't mean much when you are throwing for 6's. I'd much rather have 3 shots for 4's than 5 shots for 6's. Not to mention it keeps the banshees fighting when something T7 or 8 comes along, otherwise they are fodder.

My thoughts on the DA exarch. I usually run a pair of DA squads in all of my lists and I'm a big fan of bladestorm peak-a-boo with the serpent. But lets not forget that bladestorm in fact costs you half a round of shooting in the long run. If you are getting back into a serpent and giving up a round of shooting that's fine and there's no penalty there. However, the DA's are a great unit for kiting CC units. With 18" range they can stay completely out of assault range barring fleet of foot, (and even then it'd be pretty lucky) and usually get two rounds of shooting 20 shots. So the exarch isn't as essential as it may seem.

Wraithlords - If you are at all inclined to run hybrid lists, this should be where the hybrid goes, but kit em light, if he breaches the 160 mark you've done something wrong!

Warlock power: spiritseer. Unless you are playing a static list (which we're not cause we're mech eldar) this usually isn't that big of a boost, as both warlock and wraithlord will be moving toward the enemy, and if they are going different places the extra 6" isn't that much of a help.

Warwalkers: Not my favorite weapon. For around the same price you can get squad of spiders which have a lot more flexibility and mobility and the same number of str6 shots with better aim. If you put bigger weapons on em they become even more of a liability.

Prisms: Good stuff, but don't bank on em too much. Most armies will have a means of disabling them with glances turn after turn. Their main strength is their insane range, but this makes the prism have a tendency to stay pretty far out of support range, and subsequently easily lost. With a mech eldar list, its all about strength of one strike, prolonged conflicts tend to end poorly for us, a prism can definitely add to the power of the strike, but they only offer one shot out of 115 points and with cover readily available the utility of that shot diminishes quickly. I don't think that the prism really over shadows the other heavy support choices that much.

[Emp.]

Originally Posted by FartsMcGee

Prisms: Good stuff, but don't bank on em too much. Most armies will have a means of disabling them with glances turn after turn. Their main strength is their insane range, but this makes the prism have a tendency to stay pretty far out of support range, and subsequently easily lost. With a mech eldar list, its all about strength of one strike, prolonged conflicts tend to end poorly for us, a prism can definitely add to the power of the strike, but they only offer one shot out of 115 points and with cover readily available the utility of that shot diminishes quickly. I don't think that the prism really over shadows the other heavy support choices that much.

I like all that you said, if I may just ask your opinions on better mech list Heavy Support Options? What do you favor?

[FartsMcGee]

Personally, I never leave home with out a wraithlord. Usually I'll kit him with just a sword and run him along side a transport with a seer inside. I love em, cause he usually scores very high on target priority and give my transports a free walk. Or if you play more of a hybrid list he makes for insane support for the slogging units. People don't fear guardians, but they won't come near guardians and a wraithlord.

Another oft over looked unit is the falcon. With the chance for holo-fields this puppy makes for another unbelievable fire sink. Two shots of AP2 is tough to overlook. I like em for dragon delivery, I've also run seer councils in em before too, casting fortune on a falcon and flat outing it directly into the middle of the opponent's army not only is a great way to get your seer council in the mix, but again gives your other transports a free walk to the action, if your opponent doesn't take the time and effort to shut down the falcon then they have the serious problem of a fortune'd council and guide'd falcon in their face.

I do think that the prism is great, the opportunity to move 12" and fire 60" at insane strength and AP can't be overstated, but the problem with em is that they lack tactical flexibility, and mech eldar is far more about the reaction to the opponent's threat rather than posing our own.

[Canew]

Stickied.

[niraco]

Nice post.

Now some considerations.

Vectored engines: they are not worthless. They are too pricey for what they do but imagine the difference between getting you tbanshee transport imobilized or wrecked. In second case not only you lose the transport but you unit will auto disembark. pew pew bye bye banshees. But again are too pricey

Fire prism spirit stones. i also run naked prisms but when i know i`ll encounter close combat armies i sometimes take these as they make the difference between a dead and an alive prism.

As for the mech list ..evenin hybrid/nidzilla wraithlords are nice, they are not mech so their lists are not mech lists

[Dire]

I'd just like to add that Swooping Hawks use Skyleap after Deep Strike which pretty much enables them to stay (hover?) frosty out of the table for... well... whole game if you wish.

[cheart]

A couple of quick point about a few things. DA's in a falcon may NOT claim objectives unless they disembark, only dedicated transports have the luxury of sitting on an objective with troops.

Quote from page 90 of the BRB:

"Unit of Troops embarked in a transport can control objectives (measure the distance to the vehicle's hull)."

Nowhere in there is a mention of being dedicated. Unless I see it otherwise, I'd play that its fine for DAs to be in a falcon and claim an objective.

[jarzola]

Thanks to all who posted in here, it's been a big help to at least this new player. Don't have a lot to add as of now, still going through some casual games with some buddies while we get a better grasp on the rules/build up our armies and hit up the LGS. But I will say that I graduated from the DiW Fire Prism acadamy. Love em. Waiting for my third to come in the mail.

[ericismyname]

Originally Posted by nakaruru

Reserve lists work best with mech. The whole point is to use the speed to hit your enemy hard in a short period of time at his weakest point while limiting the amount of time your units can be targeted. If your opponent doesn't move forward at all from his starting line then you come in and play like normal just with a few less turns. If he advances then it is even less distance that the transports and their cargo have to travel to get to prime targets. While multiple tanks are hard to kill in 5-7 rounds, they become even harder to kill in 3-5 rounds that you get by running reserve. I disagree. More and more armies are becoming armor heavy. Leaving off tanks is leaving off a shot yourself per turn. And you start at the board edge. Sure you can move 24" but you risk getting immobilised and give up another shot with your heavy weapon. Having all your tanks on the board at turn 1, gives you several heavy weapon shots to take down the greatest threats to your tanks. Starting with even 3/4 of your tanks a turn is still not giving me enough shots on my first turn. Also my wave serpeants travel together. Their unison of assaults and shooting (with the cargo) makes them like a mop, wiping an entire flank once they get to the other side. Having only 1 wave serpeant run up on the enemy is asking for trouble. But having 2-3 is having some serious trouble on them. But to each their own. If it works for you, than kudos, just not for me and definetly not for beginners.

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary. I put that in because some people feel the scout move / outflank give the walkers enough speed I feel differently.

You talk about rangers holding an objective from round 1 with a mech list I don't even think about objectives until round 4 maybe round 3 if I will need to get one on the other side of the board. Rangers give your opponent a static target to go after, you are then forced to either let them die or throw your generally outnumbered units at the enemy to try and halt the enemy advance. Static or not, your opponenet will not target them the entire game, if he does then that means less shots on your tanks, which means less dead tanks. Translating to his tanks taking more heat for more rounds. It is fine you dont think about holding objectives at turn 1, alot of people dont. When the enemy advances on your rangers you will have to divert fire, but when you play mech eldar you want to be the one controlling the game, and with the speed of wave serpeants....and their deadly cargo. Opponents will divert assistance to the destruction or repel of your wave serpeant cargo. If they dont then you will just stomp their objective and still remain at 1 objective.

I base alot of my mech playing around the speed of the list. This is why I am negative on rangers and warwalkers for mech. If it can not shift 12-24" in one round it either falls behind and dies or becomes an anchor that the rest of the list has to stay by negating my speed.

Mech is fluid, with the speed and reserve options if played well it can not be pinned down. Why make it more static by adding slow moving units or units that can not move and shoot?

Originally Posted by cKerensky

Rep!

Great, excellent, amazing post. It covers all the bases, and gives people a good idea on how to run a Mech list. Originally I was going to disagree about the harliquins, but since you're running a Mech list, I couldnt agree more!

Heck! Even your statement about Storm Guardians was spot on with my view of them!

Also, I would add for people to not be afraid to use Wave Serpents as actual tanks. They do a pretty darned good job of it (best dedicated transport in the game. The thing can duel even the best tanks in the game and win!)

Other than Land raiders

[ericismyname]

Originally Posted by FartsMcGee

A couple of quick point about a few things. DA's in a falcon may NOT claim objectives unless they disembark, only dedicated transports have the luxury of sitting on an objective with troops. Prove it.

Crack shot for fire pike'd fire dragon tank hunter exarchs: I don't know how much valkyrie IG you guys face off against but in my neck of the woods these players are creeping up everywhere. A huge part of their strategy relies on picking up a cover save and dropping troops off. Likewise with tau with their obscure everything rules, the crack shot makes the fire dragons a real threat to every tank, plus with the pike it turns the unit into a str 9 AP1 unit with an effective range of 24" or 18" + 12" if they are in a falcon/waveserpent. If you play the dragons at range you give up the melta dice (which is a shame) but you can cook valkyries and hammerheads at will, while still giving yourself the benefit of cover saves and taking theirs away. Think of the amount of area denial you provide yourself with an anti-tank unit that can nail something with str 9 AP 1 at 24" and never afford it a save. The entire game is based off cover saves not just IG Valks. Tau obscuring only works if farther than 12, in which case your squad cant shoot and its only your exarch with fire pike. But I believe your only referring to the exarch. The reason why i recommend against it, is because it gets costly when you start upgrading. Shaving points to fit the last bit of that last squad in is usually more beneficial than having alot of upgrades. FOr instance dropping or shaving a few points to fit another troop choice in when 2/3 the game are objective based. Its not a bad tactic or theory. It may be a little advanced for beginners though. I think it will be better for beginners to start off with mech eldar having more troops and tanks. But if you cant get it all in no matter what, these arnt bad ways to spend the remaining points.

Now before everyone says that dragons work best as a cheap unit and the goal of the wave serpent/falcon is to get em close cause we're mech and that's what we do, think about it this way, how often does your dragon strategy involve a suicide mission? And how many other units in your army would you ever send on a suicide mission? Why I do not use dragons.

Playing eldar, especially mech eldar, its pretty important that we not get stuck in a point swap mentality. Sure it's an easy comparison and a useful tool in figuring out what pulls its weight and what doesn't. But when people get ready to swap 96 points for more points on the other side just cause it costs em points we tend to ignore the fact that we play a strict role army, and its still 5th ed! Crap low point units win games! Every unit has a very specified function, and when we willingly give up arguably our most specialized unit on a suicide mission i feel like its akin to a carpenter saying, "Well, that screwdriver did something yesterday, but i'm gonna leave it at home today cause i still got my hammer and saw, and well both those hit harder."Agreed, i take units that can kill more than their points worth, there is no point for point mentality.

My two cents on the Banshee exarch. Personally i think mirrorswords ain't so hot. Cool model btw, but the aspect of the banshee isn't horde control its our hard counter to specialized high save units. It's not uncommon for some of these units to have higher toughness, such as with the mark of nurgle, biker units, 2+ tyrants and so on. As such, the mirrorswords don't enhance in this role as much as the executioner, extra dice don't mean much when you are throwing for 6's. I'd much rather have 3 shots for 4's than 5 shots for 6's. Not to mention it keeps the banshees fighting when something T7 or 8 comes along, otherwise they are fodder. Well since its foolish to take banshees without a doomseer and since you will be rolling 2-3 hand fulls of dice, youd be surprised how effective they are at horde control as well as shock troop slayers. If you are using your banshees to assault tyrants then you are mistaken. Use heavy weapons to bring them down. Bike units are usually small and banshee units are big. Chances are you will still roll enough power weapon wounds to destroy it.... Mark of nurgle can be tricky yes. I avoid them like the plagues they are and use blade storm or combined prism pie plates.

My thoughts on the DA exarch. I usually run a pair of DA squads in all of my lists and I'm a big fan of bladestorm peak-a-boo with the serpent. But lets not forget that bladestorm in fact costs you half a round of shooting in the long run. If you are getting back into a serpent and giving up a round of shooting that's fine and there's no penalty there. However, the DA's are a great unit for kiting CC units. With 18" range they can stay completely out of assault range barring fleet of foot, (and even then it'd be pretty lucky) and usually get two rounds of shooting 20 shots. So the exarch isn't as essential as it may seem. The reason i blade storm everytime they get out is because I use bladestorm to soften up the banshee assault target. I must ensure they kill them in the first round, so they can get back into their waveserpeant to advance on next enemy. DAs do the same. I work in pairs with them. This is how eldar is most effectivly played. Everything working together, concentrated pain. Always on a flank.

Wraithlords - If you are at all inclined to run hybrid lists, this should be where the hybrid goes, but kit em light, if he breaches the 160 mark you've done something wrong!

Warlock power: spiritseer. Unless you are playing a static list (which we're not cause we're mech eldar) this usually isn't that big of a boost, as both warlock and wraithlord will be moving toward the enemy, and if they are going different places the extra 6" isn't that much of a help.

Warwalkers: Not my favorite weapon. For around the same price you can get squad of spiders which have a lot more flexibility and mobility and the same number of str6 shots with better aim. If you put bigger weapons on em they become even more of a liability.

Prisms: Good stuff, but don't bank on em too much. Most armies will have a means of disabling them with glances turn after turn. Their main strength is their insane range, but this makes the prism have a tendency to stay pretty far out of support range, and subsequently easily lost. With a mech eldar list, its all about strength of one strike, prolonged conflicts tend to end poorly for us, a prism can definitely add to the power of the strike, but they only offer one shot out of 115 points and with cover readily available the utility of that shot diminishes quickly. I don't think that the prism really over shadows the other heavy support choices that much.

for 115 points the fire prism is a good buy. You have 3 devastating powerful tanks for 345 points. In a all mech lists, prisms do not soak up all the fire. People shoot at wave serpeants alot too. exspecially if there are troops in them.

Originally Posted by niraco

Nice post.

Now some considerations.

Vectored engines: they are not worthless. They are too pricey for what they do but imagine the difference between getting you tbanshee transport imobilized or wrecked. In second case not only you lose the transport but you unit will auto disembark. pew pew bye bye banshees. But again are too priceySo what you are saying is...they are worthless

Fire prism spirit stones. i also run naked prisms but when i know i`ll encounter close combat armies i sometimes take these as they make the difference between a dead and an alive prism.

As for the mech list ..evenin hybrid/nidzilla wraithlords are nice, they are not mech so their lists are not mech lists

Originally Posted by jarzola

Thanks to all who posted in here, it's been a big help to at least this new player. Don't have a lot to add as of now, still going through some casual games with some buddies while we get a better grasp on the rules/build up our armies and hit up the LGS. But I will say that I graduated from the DiW Fire Prism acadamy. Love em. Waiting for my third to come in the mail.

No problem. that is what its for.