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This is my competitive alternative to the dual steam tank army. I find the giant replacement to be less cheesy, more fun, and it is a more acceptable army to run against ur friends. However, this list is still very competitive, and will most likely (if played well) all but rout non-competitive lists in the first 3 turns of the game. I have played 10 or so games with this list and only lost 1. Most of those games were against pretty competitive lists.
What is also cool about the giant is you can run him near the warrior priest or arch lector and heal his wounds full (as he suffers heavily each turn from enemy shooting and has no armor); you can also give him the 4+ ward save. This ensures he will hit the enemy lines.
I generally run the giant, steam tank, arch lector, inner circle knights, and nilla knights w/ musician straight up the middle. The infantry blocks hold the sides of the middle, and their 5 man detachments run up and mis-direct charges. One pistolier unit runs one flank, while the other is joined by the regular knights with full command on the other flank. These two units seem to work well together, dominating a flank and hitting the center for devastating late game charges. The steam tank obviously can do damage, but his best quality is his ability to scare the crap out of the opposing player and thus you control the pace of the center of the battlefield. The nilla knights run with the inner circle knights (joined by warrior priest) and cover them from heavy fire and mis-direct charges to ensure the inner circle gets the charge they want. The arch lector is great because he can take a charge and bog down any unit indefinitely. The captain on pegasus with doomfire ring + pistol goes arond and harasses enemy war machines, wizards, and light shooting units. Anyways, theres alot more to say about how to play it, but here's the list:
Arch Lector, War Altar, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Van Horstman's Speculum, Sword of Might
Warrior Priest, Heavy Armor, Shield, Biting Blade
Captain, Pegasus, Heavy Armor, Shield, Lance, Pistol, Doomfire Ring
25 Swordsmen, Standard bearer, Musician
Detachment of 5 free company
25 Swordsmen, Standard bearer, Musician
Detachment of 5 free company
5 Knights, Full Comman
5 Knights, Musician
5 Inner Circle Knights, Full Command, War Banner
5 Pistoliers, Musician, Outrider with Repeater Pistol
5 Pistoliers, Musician, Outrider with Repeater Pistol
I look forward to your questions, comments, and suggestions.
That's really a very nice list. All I can see is that you have NO shooting except for the close-ranged weapons on your tank, Captain, and pistoliers. You have to be very quick about getting into their lines. A gunline could really mess up your day.
Also, I'd try to find a way to stick another Knight into each of those units, to give a frontage of 6. The pistoliers are good at 5, since they're just fire support and extra help in battle. But the Knights should probably be run at 6.
Also, why does the one unit of Core knights only have a musician? Were you just trying to burn up some points? A musician is just there for moral support in rallying and tied combats. If you could swap him for a standard-bearer, it'd be a little more beneficial. I rarely ever take musicians on knights (you either win, or you quagmire) so I'd take them off both units and use the points for that SB I was talking about.
I also don't quite get the Pegasus captain until I reread your intro. I guess that would certainly work. The Doomfire Ring seems excessive, probably not the most nesesary piece of equipment on him, but I guess it works.
I'm guessing your infantry all march forwards, with the tank and giant nearby to hold the center. The cavalry are your flankers, while hopefully that Captain gets into the back to wreak some havoc with their ranged capability.
My question on the tactic is- where does that Warrior Priest go? If he hides in one of the units, why not decrease the model count by 1? Its just another pointsave thing, but it might free up some points to go towards something.
I like the list, I can see it being incredibly dangerous, and maybe you had taken all my comments into consideration for the more competetive list. The thought of 2 STs is just terrifying.
Hey Captain, thanks for your comments and suggestions. I will respond to them in the order you gave them. I am worried about gun lines, but I recently faced 2 different dwarf gun lines and the opponent conceded at the end of the 2nd turn. I am still wary of them. I feel the army is so fast that by turn 2 just about everything should be in combat, so its just one turn of shooting/magic that the opponent will have. I think a skaven gunline could cause me problems though. The thing is...what else could I possibly do to prevent pain from a gunline? My pegasus captain flies and shoots panic causing magic at the enemy on turn 1, charges on turn 2. My cannon and steam tank cannon hit important war machine targets on turn 1. I dont see where I could prevent any more pain, suggestions?
I liek your suggestion about putting 6 knights in my units. I am going to try and do that for my inner circle and possibly my full commanded knight unit. The nilla knights with musician are a disposable unit and don't require 6 I don't think. As for my command choices with my knights. Inner Circle clearly deserves a full command. My nilla knights want one because their job is to protect the inner circle form heavy fire (and take panic checks and maybe flee, necessitating a rally) and flee from charges to set up devastating charges from the inner circle, in which case they will also need to rally. They themselves should rarely be making charges, their job is to die and flee. And if they are going to flee, 8 points to give them +1 to rally seems like a pretty good investment to me, but I will continue to think about it. Giving them a standard would be a waste of points, given the way I use them. My full commanded basic knights I would consider losing the musician, I probably will actually, good call on that.
The captain with Doomfire ring is essential. The ability to quickly get behind enemy lines and start causing panic checks in 2 or 3 units a turn? Priceless.
As for the warrior priest, he goes with the inner circle knights. I do this because, combined with the war banner, he gives them the ability to charge ranked or hard enemies in the front and win combat. If I can break the enemy's big anchor block with a turn 2 charge, I've already won the game. Giving that unit 6 guys will definitely help.
Again thanks for your comments and suggestions. Yes, the list can be very dangerous, and seems like more of a fair fight than using 2 steam tanks.
Hmm... your answers are very satisfactory :C
Gunline advice, I have none of. I would suggest more missile troops, but that will detract from the number of fighters. You are looking at 1-2 turns of shooting PLUS the likely stand-and-shoot result. That Pegasus captain is good for wiping down their magic and warmachines, but I think what you'd need to be most worried about are armies with alot of Handguns or Dark Elf Repeater Crossbows. Have you played WoodElves or Brettonians yet? They might also give you a rough run of it. The Woodelves have that annoying habit of not being there when you charge, they are very quick and manueverable. One thing that you DON'T want. Similarly, the Brettonians are just as "in-your-face" as you are, if not more because of their Knight armies. You have big enough units, they should hold the charge.
But if those Nilla-Knights are for flight reactions, why not use the Pistoliers? They can rally and turn around to fight again. And they're 5pts cheaper. In your original plan, you had one unit of Pistoliers acting independently along the flank. Why not sub the Nilla-Knights into that role? It might even be enough to draw some moves away from the main line of battle. The pistoliers in your main attack would be able to add some close-fire support, and their ability to change formation on the run could get you through the enemy lines and give you a 3-4th turn Rear Charge.
I don't dispute that ring now. That makes ALOT of sense now that I look at it.
And so does the Priest. You accidentaly forgot to note that he's on a steed in your list. I'm assuming the horse is barded. I'd just go back and recheck points.
All in all, I'm not shooting down your list at all (no pun intended) but rather posing a few questions in each unit. There might or might not be a way to fix the problem, or there may not be an immediate need to. But it's just things to think about before you find yourself in a battle going "crap- shoulda seen that coming". I like the concept of an attacky Empire army, but alas, I play a gunline/mass-effect list.
I can see how this list could be hard to fight against on a table with lots of cover, but any table with reasonable LoS will cause you problems. As a long-standing dwarf player, this is exactly the sort of army i love to see across the table from me. The scary parts are the war altar, giant, steam tank, and inner circle knights, in that order. Apart from that, the rest is what i deem manageable (they might cause a lot of damage if used right, but most armies arent too worried about them)
The war altar is easily rid of by any war machine out there, especially dwarf bolt throwers. Steam tanks are tougher but once 5 wounds or so are knocked off it becomes useless. The giant is sort of variable, and in my experience it either does awesome or does jack.
Personally i might think of getting a wizard with lore of shadows or beast, simply to try and get the movement spells. a giant charging on the first turn might be interesting to say the least.
I like the captain though, in my empire list he always gets his points back, although people tend to like sending arrows at him for some reason.
oh, and apart from vhs and the odd giant special attack, your force is weak against enemy characters, so i suggest keeping out of the way of any CC lord and his unit you see across the board. A well-kitted dwarf, chaos, ogre, or even brettonian lord will spell doom to any of your units in CC
Oi! Get off me beard!
Thanks for your comments. I agree, my list is vulnerable to a heavy shooty army. I am not sure what to do about it though, suggestions? I have hope though because I recently faced off against 2 different dwarf gunlines, both of whom condeded at the end of turn 2. The second one had 2 cannons, 2 bolt throwers, and 70+ thunderers. So far I've been able to deal with the gun lines pretty well. The captain on pegasus helps alot. But any further suggestions you can make as to how to avoid pain from a gunline would be helpful.
Your comment about mega-characters definitely got me thinking. I really have no way to reliably deal with something like a bloodthirster. Becasue it can fly, it chooses its battles, and why would it ever fight my arch lector. What do you think I can do to deal with mega character threats more reliably?
I used to have a wizard in my list, but I dropped it to allow mor epoints for troops. But a movement spell would be great. Im just worried that if I didnt get that spell with a lvl2 (and the chances are pretty low) my wizard would pretty much be a waste of points.
I would give your Archlector the Sword of Fate instead, in this situation. That way, you just nominate their uber, and they'll probaby keep well back from your hard-hitter.
And in response to what's being said about the war-altar, it's up to you. It's a chariot, and not a very good one at that. I'd drop the points and just stick him on a horse. It's better for his save, and against some armies, his survivability. Unless ofcourse you are employing him as a bullet-sponge.
I'm sorry to say, but you can't use the priests prayers on the giant as it is a UNIT. The prayers description states that they can ONLY be cast on the priest, character or unit champion. Therefore the giant is not eligible.
Think you'll be ok though. With 3 large targets to choose from most likely the giant will survive!
DAMN. You are right, I hadn't read that bit in a while and thought it was just any single model.
In other news, my list is 3 and 1 against dwarf gun lines designed Specifically to beat this list.
I am confused as to how you can take a giant in your empire army. The Empire army has no dogs of war entry in the rare section, and thus I thought you could not take them.