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  1. #1
    Senior Member Tashin's Avatar
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    The darned treehuggers!

    Hi everyone (this is my first post on these forums, so please bear with me if i make any stupid mistakes)

    Im having some troubles against a friend of mine who plays WoodElves. We're usually playing 2000points, and we've played 4 times over the last months, of which i've had 3 draws and 1 lose - not a very positive statistic.

    First of all we've playing at his place, which means that we're only using his terrain (which ofcause is only woods), so im always ad an disadvantage from the terrain point of view.

    i've been trying different approaches considering my choice of units, but i always end up being stuck between forests, getting slammed by treesinging, and then violently flanked by his dryads - while my mainunits gets hammered by arrows from all sides.

    Anyway he'll probably use Gladeguards, Wardancers, Waywatchers, Dryads and 1 treeman against me.

    I was thinking of using (havnt used the last 100point yet):

    Arch Lector w/ Meteoric iron, Sword of Rightous stell

    Battle wizard (lvl 2) - fire w/ Doomfire Ring, Wizard staff

    WP, mounted w/ Aldred's Casket of Sorcery, Sword of battle

    24x Swordsmen, full command
    9x free company
    5x handgunners

    25x Halberdiers, full command
    10x free company

    20x Flagellant warband

    6x Knightly Orders, full command

    6x Knightly Orders, full command

    6x Pistoliers, musician

    10x Huntsmen

    1x Great Cannon

    1x Helstorm Rocket Battery

    This is a new list. Usually i never bring artillery (which probably is a mistake). I was hoping for a aggressive-defensive magicphase in order to passify his damned treesinging. On top of that im bringing in Pistoliers and huntsmen for the first time trying to counter his skirmishharrashment by harrashing him.

    Anyway - i still dont really feel that my army has the punch yet. Its just blocks of weaklings really. Besides im really failing at realising what tactics are strong against the woodelves.

    So please, if you can give me some advice on how to beat the hell out of woodelves or atleast comment/criticise my armylist.

    - cheers


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  3. #2
    Banned ArchonFarseerGuy's Avatar
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    Welcome to LO! Always great to see new faces around these parts. If you need anything, poke me and I'll see what I can do.

    Anyway, to your list and what I know about Woodies in general:
    *The things are dangfangled quick. If he uses glade/wild riders, you'll need to take any chance to pop those units that you can get, as they can wreak lots of havoc among your army.
    *A common trick is the bait-and-flee, in which a unit of glade riders will slap itself right in front of an infantry unit, forcing you to charge (in which case they'll flee and you'll only get a 4" movement in the direction they choose), move around them (placing them out of position) or simply ignore them, effectively forfeiting your movement. How to put them off is up to you, really. Pistoliers are legendary in epic proportions against Wood Elves, as they're quick, have a ton of shots that have little penalty to use and wound most things on a 3+. Meanwhile, most enemy units will be small and expensive. Likewise, if you can have a firebase to cover your unit's back, such as a volley gun or XBowmen on a hill, that can help, if only by putting your opponent off being too open with them.
    *Ground control units can work fairly well. A helblaster volley gun effectively has a 24" 'zone of death' around it that opponents tend to veer from or be very cautious in, despite any brave talk they may put up.
    *Their shooting will always be another major strength. I rate Wood Elves as the best shooting army out there, simply because they're reliable. Out-shooting them without some tips and tools is like trying to beat a South American team at football. It won't happen. To that end, XBowmen really come into their own as they can outright return fire or strike the first blow. Again, Pistoliers are excellent as they're quick and have lots of damage potential.
    *Combats tend to be short and sharp. A Wood Elves general will tend to try and use their speed and manoeuvrability to place two or three units against one of yours, featuring at least one flank or rear charge. They will annihilate that unit, then move onto the next one. As such, I would be very tentative with my units. Maybe drop the halberdiers for more gadgets (as described later) and use the knights to tag-team with the infantry blocks, holding before looking to counter-charge the next turn. The longer the combat goes on, the more of his figures die and the more susceptible to CRes they become (incidentally, one of our major strengths in combat).
    *This does leave waywatchers. While incredibly expensive, they can do a lot of damage, particularly to gunlines. They deploy in your zone behind an infantry block or somewhere and use their duel hand weapons to roll up units, if they're not marchblocking or sending accurate arrows into the back of a unit uncontested. However, they are very vulnerable to magic missiles, particularly ones that don't require much in the way of LoS (I'm looking at you, lore of death). Also, if you can get clever with deployment, that will tend to reduce their effectiveness. Slightly hold back and angle a unit of knights: they can catch up quickly and can push the unit's possible deployment zone back. Be tactical with your warmachine crews: as skirmishers, they'll reduce deployment options dramatically.

    Hopefully that helps and isn't too outdated or anything .

    To your list:
    It looks alright, but not too focal in anything. I would make a few adjustments to it:
    Arch Lector w/ Meteoric iron, Sword of Rightous stell

    Battle wizard (lvl 2) - fire w/ Doomfire Ring, Wizard staff
    Not bad. Doomfire Ring can be a bit hit or miss, but is generally alright. I'd also consider swapping out the staff for a Rod of Power, as it grants a lot of flexibility, and can enhance an attacking magic phase if the WEs don't have a lot to show for it.

    WP, mounted w/ Aldred's Casket of Sorcery, Sword of battle
    Not much use for the CoS to be perfectly honest. Drop that and give him an Icon of Magnus or Rod of Command. Psychology is an important part of a Wood Elves player's game, so if you can stave it off, it gives you a better chance to hold. I'd also give serious thought to dismounting him and slapping on a pair of hand weapons/GW/something else, freeing up your magic item allowance.

    24x Swordsmen, full command
    9x free company
    5x handgunners
    Change the ranged detachment to archers. An improved LoS will help a lot.

    25x Halberdiers, full command
    10x free company
    Remove this lot. They're fairly expensive and will free up quite a few more points for other things.

    20x Flagellant warband

    6x Knightly Orders, full command
    Drop the banners. They give away 100 VPs if lost and probably won't see much use if you'll be working with the infantry.

    6x Knightly Orders, full command

    6x Pistoliers, musician
    Lovely unit. Take an Outrider with repeating pistols if you can find the points. Not a necessity though, just very nice to have.

    10x Huntsmen
    Drop these guys for XBowmen. If you get a hill, this unit should provide a nice firebase. They can go toe-to-toe with glade guard (range-wise) or take pot shots at fast cavalry silly enough to get in LoS, or something.

    1x Great Cannon

    1x Helstorm Rocket Battery
    With the dropped unit of halberdiers, I'd chuck in a helblaster volley gun and a mortar. Maybe go for a steam tank if you're feeling particularly mean, as they can be fairly resistant. Bear in mind that if an opponent can place a few wounds on it, it will find its effectiveness reduced. Don't be afraid to compete in all phases, and if used tactically, some units can really enhance each other.

    If you feel like surprising your opponent, go very magic-heavy (ie, drop the Lector for a Lvl4). Some lists I've made are so magic heavy, they'd get rejected by a large amount of tournaments around here. If you can pop the opposing wizard or two, you'll open the floodgates for spamming direct damage spells. Fireball, fiery blast, soul stealer (to a degree), creeping death and so on are all very effective at hurting WE units, as they tend to be small and fragile, yet hard to hit (mitigated by the magic).

    Hope this helps .

  4. #3
    Senior Member Tashin's Avatar
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    Awesome reply! thanks alot Archon.

    Lets say i dismount my WP, where do you think would be appropriate spots to put my characters?

    Also - considering the Rod of Power. I dont really get it. Lets say its been Woodelf magic phase. I've got 2 unused dice, he has 1 unused dice. So we both roll a dice. He scores 3, I score 4. I win, meaning that i get to put all the 3 dice in my rod.
    Next magic phase is mine. My wizard, being lvl 2 with a max of 3 dices to use, is he able to use the 2 standard dice, his own 2 dice and the 3 dice from the Rod of Power?
    Can you confirm this is how it works?

    - Tash

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    Reading AFG's reply I thought of another possible way to combat the WE. While I hardly use them myself Outriders might make a good firebase with their 360 deg shooting LoS. The only big drawback I see is that you will have to be careful with them. They are expensive and only have T3 5+ sv. so easily shot by the WE arrows.

    The Rod of Power works in the following way:
    * In either your or his magic phase you are left with X dice.
    * You tell your opponent you store Y dice in the Rod of Power, Y <= X and Y <= 3.
    * The next magic phase (his or yours, respectively) you roll a D6.
    -> If D6 >= Y you can keep the dice and any wizard in your army can use them.
    -> If D6 < Y you discard the dice.

    I use the item a lot to continuously store 2 dice to the next defensive magic phase.

    Good luck against the WE.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Tashin's Avatar
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    not a bad idea either. Im kinda in awe thinking about the fact that my 6 horsemen are able to deliver 18-20 shots in a single round of ranged combat. Thats just pure awesomeness
    That being said im still a newbie at maneuvering my units, so im affraid i wont be up for the job controlling those guys. Anyway , i'll think about it Cmdrwrein. Thanks for your comment and thanks for explaining the Rod of Power to me

    - Tash

  7. #6
    Member HighPlainDrifter's Avatar
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    Playing wood elves myself hopefully I can give you an insight into what kicks my ass.

    MAGIC AND CR!
    These are the main things WE players have to be careful of.


    Magic:
    Offensive WE magic lists are little to none. Most defensive magic focused lists will have 5-7 rerollable DD. While 7 rerollable dd is no laughing matter, he sacrifices all his characters and a lot of points to get it. If he doesn't go that route then he should have 1-2 scroll caddies or hes asking for trouble.

    I would suggest going magic heavy against him.


    CR:
    Most WE units are skirmishers, thus no rank bonus. Empire is great at CR. This might surprise you, but this is how I would suggest taking out his Treeman. Stubborn can only go so far when you have ranks and both flanks. If you can get the Treeman away from his main force, try and grab him in combat with 25 swordsmen and 2 detachments. He'll be running off the table before you know it.

    Don't underestimate CR against WE. Just be careful not to get flanked yourself.


    Glade Guard:
    36" s3 bows that become s4 when you are no longer at long range. Very dangerous to state troops, not so dangerous to knights. 6 knights should be able to take out a unit of 10 without taking a wound (unless the dice gods hate you)


    Dyrads:
    Most wood elves have no armor at all, the only save dryads get is a 5+ ward save, which is great except that it cannot be used against magical attacks. 1 or 2 magic missiles and the unit of dryads will be severely diminished (if he uses the regular 8 strong dryad unit). They are t4 so use your knights or Halberdiers to clean up the rest.


    Wardancers:
    KEEP YOUR KNIGHTS AND HEROES AWAY FROM THESE. If charged he will use the 4+ ward save dance and then switch to the killing blow dance and take out your knights and heroes easily. Focus the rocket battery on this unit if you can. They only have a 6+ ward save when not in combat. Either overwhelm them with CR or shoot them down until they no longer pose a threat. If you're not careful you could very easily lose an entire unit to these guys.


    Waywatchers:
    KEEP YOUR KNIGHTS AND HEROES AWAY FROM THESE. 5 bs and Lethal shot (long range killing blow) when not at long range. These guys are my favorite unit by far. I've taken out a unit of 6 knights before they could turn around and charge me. Not much good news for you with these guys other than they cost 24 points each and they are as fragile as the rest of his army.

    Depending on what your willing to sacrifice to get them, you could rack up 240 points for taking them out. That's why hes going to try and protect them with everything he can. If you can get into combat with them you should be able to win by CR, but good luck getting into combat. 5&quot; movement speed, 360 line of sight, and no modifier for moving and shooting. Sadly empire has no medium cavalry which is perfect for taking these guys down. You will probably lose a lot of whatever you throw at them. What I would suggest would be to stay in long range of these guys, that way they are only 5-10 bs archers with no killing blow. He will try and move them closer, and when he does smash them into elf mush.


    Treeman:
    Scariest dude on the battlefield. Hit him with cannonballs, hit him with fire attacks from your lore of fire wizard (hes flammable/x2 wounds), and if he is not dead by then CR him off the table. This one is going to come down to dice rolls more than any others. I've lost my whole WE force except for my treeman and hes taken out the remaining 500 points of my opponents army by himself. Don't underestimate him.


    You should be fine if you use these strategies.
    Sorry If I was vague on a few things, there was just too much to write about. Good luck.
    Last edited by HighPlainDrifter; December 6th, 2009 at 23:06.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Tashin's Avatar
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    really really nice answers

    I really feel alot more confident facing him (tho it'll have to wait another month due to xmas and all that jazz). Highplaindrifter, thanks for taking the time to write me a WE-walkthrough (and that a really great straightforward walkthrough).

    Alright i've been reading (and listening to most of) what you guys have said, and my new setup has become alot more ranged-oriented than it was before. Anyway i thought i'd post it here. Again feel free to criticise/comment/yell at me

    And thanks for the help everyone. Im really impressed with these forums - will definatly post a battle report when i get this game going down!

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Arch Lector of Sigmar, mounted + barding
    w/ Armour of meteoric iron, sword of rightous stell

    Battle Wizard (lvl 2) - fire
    w/ Rod of Power, Ring of Volans (death)

    Warrior Priest, additional hammer, heavy armour
    w/Icon of magus

    24x Swordsmen, musician, standard, champion
    (warrior priest & battle wizard goes here)
    9x Free company
    5x Archers

    10x Huntsmen

    10x Crossbowmen

    10x Crossbowmen

    17x Flagellant Warband

    7x Knightly Order, musician, champion

    6x Knightly Order, musician, champion
    (Arch Lector goes here)

    6x Outriders, musician, champion w/ Hockland long rifle

    Great Cannon

    Helstorm Rocket Battery

    Helblaster Volley Gun
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Total: 2000 point
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  9. #8
    Member HighPlainDrifter's Avatar
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    I forgot to mention that dryads fear. Yeah, dryads are awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashin View Post
    Arch Lector of Sigmar, mounted + barding
    w/ Armour of meteoric iron, sword of rightous stell
    Good thinking with the SoRS to counter the WE high WS. You might want to give thought to a war alter. WE have no s7 attacks so it will give him a lot of trouble. If you put him on the alter I'd give him dawn armor instead of AOMI.

    Battle Wizard (lvl 2) - fire
    w/ Rod of Power, Ring of Volans (death)
    I personally prefer the Doomfire ring.

    Warrior Priest, additional hammer, heavy armour
    w/Icon of magus
    I prefer a 2hander.

    24x Swordsmen, musician, standard, champion
    (warrior priest & battle wizard goes here)
    9x Free company
    5x Archers
    I'd use swordsmen and crossbowmen instead. Free company will fall very quickly to archer fire and surviving will be more important than more attacks.

    10x Huntsmen

    10x Crossbowmen

    10x Crossbowmen
    I would drop this unit, trying to outshoot WE would be impossible. 1 unit should be enough.

    17x Flagellant Warband

    7x Knightly Order, musician, champion
    You could put the WP here. Don't underestimate rerolls. But he might be better suited where he is now with the icon of magnus.

    6x Knightly Order, musician, champion
    (Arch Lector goes here)

    6x Outriders, musician, champion w/ Hockland long rifle
    I'd keep these guys at 5 strong, and only bring the hochland if he has a alter kindred. (solo character than runs around and smashes face.)

    Great Cannon

    Helstorm Rocket Battery

    Helblaster Volley Gun
    Not sure if this is necessary. Might be hard to hit the skirmishers.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Total: 2000 point
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  10. #9
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    Your army looks solid. Though I would suggest a few minor tweaks.
    * Drop the Hochland long rifle. I found one doesn't usually make a difference. Or use a neat trick and use your Hammer of Sigmar prayer on this unit champion (allowing re-roll to hit and to wound). In which case he does become rather nice.
    * Drop the AoMI on your archlector and give it to your priest. Then give him a two-handed hammer. I say this because the mounted archlector can achieve the 1+ save also in a cheaper way:
    -> mounted, barding, heavy armour, enchanted shield.
    At the moment you are "wasting" the save from mounted and barding. Personally I would kit out my general a little further, maybe gain some points by dropping 1 knight on each unit. Though I'm not completely sure it this is the right move.

    And definitely keep us posted on how your battle went. It's rare to give advice on an army and get feedback.

    To HighPlainDrifter:
    Very nice tactica. There was one thing I was wondering about though: What units would you label "medium" cavalry (which would be good at removing waywatchers)?
    Another thought I had was the mobility of a general on griffon or pegasus to help Tashin. Would you have any advice on that? The obvious advantage is a highly mobile combat force to counter the WE mobility. The big downside for both I think is the lack of armour on the monster meaning they can get shot relatively easily.

  11. #10
    Member HighPlainDrifter's Avatar
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    Hey Tash, do you have his exact list? I would be happy to pick it apart for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by CmdrWrein View Post
    To HighPlainDrifter:
    Very nice tactica. There was one thing I was wondering about though: What units would you label "medium" cavalry (which would be good at removing waywatchers)?
    Another thought I had was the mobility of a general on griffon or pegasus to help Tashin. Would you have any advice on that? The obvious advantage is a highly mobile combat force to counter the WE mobility. The big downside for both I think is the lack of armour on the monster meaning they can get shot relatively easily.
    When I say medium cavalry I mean a movement 8 cavalry unit that can hold its own in close combat, not as fragile as fast cavalry(pistoliers), and not as expensive as heavy cavalry(knights). e.g. the wood elf wild riders. These would be able to take out the Waywatchers and you wouldn't lose too many points doing so.

    If I were playing my WE and I saw a general on a griff or peg I would target him first because I knew he would fall very quickly from archer fire. Yet again this is where Waywatchers would shine. A lucky 6 on the first round and there goes your general. Same goes for the W Alter, I take back what I said earlier about it.

    It might be worth it if the opposing army had war machines or if he had warhawk riders, but from what tash said he doesn't have them in his list and WE don't have war machines. He probably should get some warhawks to counter tash's war machines though.

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