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Thread: Competive 2400

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    Competive 2400

    Hi everyone i have made a competive list for a tornument i will join. I have played it a few times and it works pretty well.

    General, griffon, bloodroar, preservation, fpa, shield, sword of might 367

    Lvl 4 wizard lord, scroll 225

    Captain, bsb, destiny, gw 147

    Warrior priest, aomi, gw 120

    40 haleberds, f/c 270
    D1. 15 swordsmen xxx
    D2. 15 swordsmen xxx

    5 knights, mus 120

    21 greatswords, f/c, gleaming pendant 266

    Hurricanum xxx

    Cannon xxx

    Helblaster xxx

    Helstorm xxx

    3 demigryphs, champ 184

    2399/2400

    What do you think, btw what lore should i use on my lvl 4??? Thx for reading this

    Last edited by CaptainSarathai; May 6th, 2012 at 21:46. Reason: removed "naked" points costs
    an army that seeks to fight without the protection of the eagle claws is clearly courageous or inept. either way, í wish no part in it - Eolaran Greyhawk, Seamaster.

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  3. #2
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    298 (x8)

    Well, you're pretty thin in infantry, so a buffing lore like light or life isn't as useful. So maybe the old standby (shadows) that everyone and his dog is taking? Either that or take fire or heavens for direct damage, or death or metal for killing characters... Death works better on characters, but metal also works on heavy units...
    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
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    Organised Chaos saltrock36's Avatar
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    Iv found shadows on my level 4 to work great for halberdiers. Hit the with mind razor and have a WP in the unit and they eat through most things. Withering cast on to units is also great, as a unit of mournfang cavalry found out when i made the S1 (S2 mounts) just when they were going to charge into my unit. Also had a Lvl1 fire mage with fireball as marnepup has said to pump out some direct damage.

    I dont rate the huricanum, +1 to hit is good, but its actualy abilities seem terrible. out of the 2 wizard wagons i prefere the Luminarc. 6+ ward is ok, but the actualy ability for its lazer beam makes it alot more useful, at least in my experiance of such things.

    I would also get rid of the helstorm. They are no where near as good as they use to be. its a 120 points best spent elsewhere. I would say another cannon. but if you want template it would have to be morta although they aren that good either since the strength reduction.

    On your demigryphs drop the champion in favour of a musicain.

    Hows your griffon been handling? ive not been too sure on how putting a not to amazing model on a lager base (all be it with some statline changes) has been able to make it better. Have you just been using it as a distraction or has it helped win any serious combats?

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    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    298 (x8)

    In terms of the wizardmobiles' "actual abilities," neither one makes the chariot worthwhile. The luminark does the same thing as a great cannon, only it does it far worse, for a very similar price. These things have to stand or fall on the strength of their buffs. And that means three units have to be affected, but then it brings the cost of the buff under 2ppm... And for +1 to hit, that's a GREAT price... For a 6+ ward, it's not terrible, but the buff itself is kinda meh at any price.

    /edit/ and then there's the bonus magic die... I loved being able to take 2-3 bonus DD in the old book, but I nearly always ended up stuffing them into the rod of power and using them on offense. In the end, I'd rather have a bonus PD because they almost never go to waste while DD frequently do, through a combination of IF and situations where you need a thirteen on two dice to stop your opponent's last spell.
    Last edited by Marnepup; May 6th, 2012 at 16:26.

  6. #5
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    I have to agree - the Hurricanum is the way to go between the two. With our numbers, the Detachment system (if you choose to use it) and the fact that we're essentially Cold Blooded with a captain in the unit, means that we can not only afford to spend time grinding an enemy down, but we can even go as far as to lose a few rounds of combat. What the Empire does lack, however, is the ability to do damage in return. The automatic +1 to hit is awesome, it's like being WS6 in most cases, we will never hit on anything worse than a 4+, it adds a lot of reliability.

    Shadows would be a good spell for you, although Life (just for the stab at Regrowth) could help a bit as well. One thing that I've noticed is that man-to-man, Empire troops are more expensive than any equivalents in another army. So the thing that gives me the most trouble isn't enemy elites - they can't break my steadfast and I can just grind them down as above - the problem is enemy chaff/hordes. 50 Goblins will stand in front of my Halberdiers and we'll just end up grinding each other down. They can cancel my Steadfast, and they can keep me tied up long enough to get something nasty into the flank or to just leave me with too few troops remaining to make my points back. Life gives you Dwellers, which is something that terrifies just about any army (and can lure out dispel dice for you to cast your Prayers and other buffs) and especially wrecks the lightweight chaff units that give us a hard time.

    Given the option, I must say that I'd be dropping the artillery, entirely. The Hellblaster could stay I suppose, maybe even pick up another one since you don't have any handgunners. The Rockets are definitely out though, they're pretty poor, and although the cannon provides some anti-monster insurance, I've often found that it's just a security blanket - relying on a cannon do deal with a monster these days is sort of silly unless you have enough to get 2 shots per turn. Our cannons are too expensive for that, so I've been doing without lately, and freeing the points up.

    That being said, I'd think about switching your Halberds and Swordsmen's places, and bumping the unit sizes. Get your Swordsmen together in a block of 50, where they can use their Parry Save to hold an enemy from the front. A Horde with 5 ranks is pretty nasty, no doubt. Put your Halberds on the flanks in smaller units of 24, 6x4. Hitting an enemy from the flanks is safer than going in head-on, so you'll lose fewer models this way. Don't worry too much about it - I still run my Halberds in the middle for my Samurai list, with Swordsmen on the outsides, but it's not exactly optimal and if I were going to a tournament I'd switch them around.

    I'd also forget about either the 5 Knights, or the 3 Demigryphs. Both units are too small to really fill their roles effectively. Your Demigryphs are your heavy shock cavalry, your Knights are more like your flankers. If you could get 2 or 3 more Demis, or drop them and grab a second rank of Knights, I think you'd find that focusing on 1 unit works a lot better than splitting the job between 2 different ones.

    My final criticism - you should never bee too short on Core points in an Empire army. I'd rather see those detachments combined into a full unit, see one of them increased to a full unit, or see one of them moved over to the Greatswords. Detachments are always going to be small, unless you run a regiment of 60 as the Parent, at which point the Parent unit is too big. Small detachments, especially your 15-model ones, should only see combat when they're flanking the parent, and should never see combat alone and unsupported. Sending in 2 Detachments against the same enemy is just pointless - you're only getting the flanking bonuses once. Put them next to the Greatswords to give them the same nice bonus. Besides, you're currently splitting your army so that deployment gets a bit off-centered. That's ok if your opponent is reacting to your deployment, but if he's deploying like I do - keeping his army centered and using mobility to redeploy and target his charges - you're going to put yourself off balance. You have the massive Statey-battalion, and then your GSs just tacked on alongside, probably even outside of the bubbles that your States are inside of.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

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    i have played 4 games this weekend ( me and my friends), we had a little tornoment (nothing serius, btw how to spell, tornoment, or how it now should be spelled, iam only 14 so i aint that good on english).
    i meet a WOC,a HE, a skaven and finally a beastmen, i ended on 2 place.

    i found the griffon to be really nice, the terrain rules we play on big tournies in sweden (were i live) is that hills are endless high, so u cant see something behind it, and u cant charge something if u are looking straight at the hill, even if u see the model. this opened up alot of room for my griffon. i useually have him behind a hill until round 3 or something, when he needs to get in alot of spells to make sure he wins combat, then he needs to kill my griffon and i have saved my scroll for when he will kill the griffon. when i got my halberds in the front, i often throw in either demigryphs or the griffon in the flank, it have worked suprisingly well, sometimes i even charge with my chariot for som extra damage. the knights i have only for killing/blocking stuff like fast cav and eagles from getting into my warmachine line, and it have also worked :-). my only concern about the list is the big block, and my few drops, since i often got the advantedge in the shooting, i need to move forward, and winning while moving big blocks forward is really hard. actully i lolzd pretty hard when i saw marnepups first post, he wrote that it wasnt so good playin life or light because i got so few combat units, i was thinking completly different, i thought it was good having life, since i could buff the unit that was in combat real hard. and as you al know DWELLERS ROCKS. and as you said, the helstorm sucks, so did the helblaster, so i was thinking of switching both to great cannons, because i have a really hard time against monsters in the flank of my haleberds, if i got 3 great cannons, i can probablly kill it before it arives.
    an army that seeks to fight without the protection of the eagle claws is clearly courageous or inept. either way, í wish no part in it - Eolaran Greyhawk, Seamaster.

  8. #7
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Shadows is definitely better for buffing your troops to win combats. Okkam's is the ultimate buff in the game, but being able to knock your opponent's WS down, or his Toughness, can do a lot for you. In fact, knocking down their Strength by D3 is better than increasing your Toughness by a D3, because they will still always wound you on a 6 no matter how tough you are, but this also decreases the chances that they'll cancel your armor.

    Remember that Scrolls do nothing for Irresistable Force, and any time I find myself against a general on a monster, I have to problems blowing myself up to take down that 18" LD range, and kill off such an expensive character. Also, not every spell requires LoS to do damage. For instance, I could Chain Lightning a regiment that I can see, and arc the lightning into your Griffon, and because it is a Flying monster, it will not only suffer the regular 2D6 hits, but an additional D6 hits.

    If you have the advantage in the shooting phase, you don't need to move forward to win games. As soon as you get into combat, your shooting becomes worthless. Rather, a shooting army like this needs to take the boring way out and play as a gunline. Turtle up in one corner of the map and let the enemy come to you. Rarely will he be able to outshoot you, all you have to worry about is his magic phase.

    Monsters in the flank should be a 'target of opportunity' for your Knights and Demigryphs. Monsters can't Stomp them, and the Demigryphs have a strong enough attack profile to bring down most monsters. You shouldn't be letting yourself get flanked by monsters. I know it can be easier said than done, but you need to work on it. Cannons are great when there's a monster present, but against some armies (like my High Elves, Warriors, or even my Empire) it's just worthless. Woo-hoo, you splattered 3 Warriors with that cannonball, way to go. Cannons are good if you can guarantee that there is going to be a monster worth shooting it at. I don't know what your local tournament-scene is like, maybe people really love to put hundreds of points into a single 6-wound liability which doesn't negate ranks and can't break Steadfast... if that's the case then feel free to take cannons. In my local area, and most other's that I've traveled to, it's all about the big squares of troops.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

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    in my area it is popular with alot of fast moving characters, like a DE army with 2 pegasi masters, 1 steed master and one steed dreadlord, what can i do against that?, they shread my griffon apart and kill a infantry block easy, i will probably try a list with alot of small blocks ( like 20-24) and a couple of hard hitters like 21 greastswords and 12 inner circle knights ( both with wps ). when i look at the lists from a tourney in my area i didnt join, i saw alot of monsters and flying/fast moving characters, and that is excactly what i get owned by, so i dont think this will be my primary tourney list. but thanks for responce, and shadow is good yes, but nothing can change that life 6 (dwellers) is the best spell in the frekin world, it owns so bad
    an army that seeks to fight without the protection of the eagle claws is clearly courageous or inept. either way, í wish no part in it - Eolaran Greyhawk, Seamaster.

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