Using the Empire with fun and fairness - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    2 (x0)

    Using the Empire with fun and fairness

    Hi Everyone,

    I'm an Empire player of modest experience. I had a fair amount of luck in the tiny local tournements (won 3 in a row, one of which I brought no shooting to at all... I nearly got laughed out of the game store till I cleaned up the tournament.) But among my friends, who display a distinctly higher level of natural aptitude for strategy, I am at best an average player. Then I went to a large tournament a while back, and came in below average... I think 2 losses, 2 draws and 1 win.

    I'm feeling frustrated with finding the balance between effective use of your forces and making the game fun for everyone involved. There are so many facets of tactics and use of the Empire troops, so I better narrow this down a little bit. Let's focus on Artillery.

    I'm trying to figure out what tools the Empire has to deal with the sort of melee heavy hitters some of the other races can bring to the table. Brutal characters are one threat, monsters are bad, but the worst of all (in my experience) is monstrous infantry.

    I can't take monstrous infantry down with my knights because their typically high strength can open that 1+ armor save like a tin can.

    I can't take them down with my infantry, because they wash away my rank and outnumbering bonuses in a tide of blood. It's depressing when your detachment's flank-counter-charge accomplishes nothing more than bumping up their kill count by 3 or 4 because additional models are exposed.

    So my question is, what can I do against these monsters?

    The only thing I can think of is cannons and magic. Magic is unreliable; I can typically count on the opponent to bring at least as much magic as myself to the table. The cannons work beautifully, but there are two problems with the cannons.

    1) Cannons make the opponent unhappy. I like my cannons, and I like it when they blow a serious threat that I otherwise have nothing on to kingdom come, but I don't like playing against an unhappy opponent, and there's nothing more unsatisfying than having your Prize Ugly get blown to bitty pieces by black powder before it even gets a chance to swing.

    2) There just aren't enough cannonballs! Some armies bring so many heavy hitters that I simply don't have enough shots to tackle them all! For instance, Ogre Kingdoms. Monstrous Infantry from right to left. I've never been so soundly crushed. Lizardmen also have some terrifying apparitions, as do many others.

    There must be some way of dealing with these opponents as a weak human blood sack in a tin can other than cannonballs, something that will be a more satisfying victory for me and a less frustrating loss for my opponent. Right?


  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Nightlord frozencore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,795
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    255 (x6)

    If it the hardier things that are giving you trouble you could always use crossbowman/handgunners as well as a cannon or two. Their shooting can really weaken an enemy unit to the point where it isn't effective enough to deny you your rank bonuses so you clean them up when they get to you.

  4. #3
    Senior Member DotR's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    33
    Posts
    470
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    30 (x1)

    Do you use a warrior priest with your knights?

    Knights are designed to break the enemy on the charge, if you get into a prolonged combat you're going to lose.

    If you don't use warrior priests, definately give them a try.

    Flagellants are great for getting the upper hand on mega units of infantry. They will hold no matter and then you can outmaneouver them.

    For instance, Ogre Kingdoms. Monstrous Infantry from right to left.
    Even archers can take down ogre kingdoms. Just shoot them with crossbowmen, they're pincushions.


    I think you might be relying on your cannons a little too much. Cannons are great as a solution to very big monsters and such but are generally unreliable.

    You should post an army list and then we can help you from there.

  5. #4
    LO Zealot
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,610
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    160 (x7)

    I'd have a hard time imagining empire without cannons. I love the rocket launcher as well. The problem is, the empire is not a good "fighting" army. None of the troops are that great in combat. I would definately get some pistoliers and maybe a captain on a pegasus to slow down the enemy and shoot at them. Get behind them and march block. that makes your cannons and rocket launcher able to shoot 2-3 turns rather than just 1-2. the fast cav can also be used to bait a unit and expose its flank. Try shooting a cannon ball down the flank of a unit of minotaurs or ogres and the entire unit will disappear (str 10 d6 wounds per ogre)

    I'd agree with DotR that it depends on the other units in your army and how big of army you are playing (I'm assuming 2250) That might limit your choices. Also, use van horstmann's speculum to your advantage. It's one of the most potent items in the game. Charge anyone armed with VHS and the gorgon shield and challenge the general or tyrant or whatever and you will kill him, plain and simple.

  6. #5
    Firefly Skarsgard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Outer Rim
    Age
    44
    Posts
    4,209
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    399 (x8)

    hellblasters can make short work of most monsters.
    Mirage Arcana Podcast
    The "A Smart Player Will..." theory is a complete paradox. If we make an assumption that everything we do is outsmarted, then theoretically we can never win.

  7. #6
    Senior Member Captain Snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Age
    27
    Posts
    722
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    29 (x2)

    The problem is, the empire is not a good "fighting" army.
    Yes it is!!

    The empire is not bad at anything. It is good at everything just not superb in any one field (with the possible exception of its artillery)

    The key to beating monstrous regiments is pairing up your units.

    Multiple large units of swordsmen all with two detachments, 1 of handgunners and 1 of halberds or greatswords.

    Protracted fire will whittle down monstrous infantry enough such that stand-and-shoot + counter charge + static combat resolution will beat them every time.

    hellblasters can make short work of most monsters.
    Hellblasters can make short work of practically anything. They are deadly!!

    Outriders used as a static fire base are usually even more effective than handgunners, slightly more expensive but fantastic. And the grenade launching blunderbuss is superb.

    Next we consider your offensive units.

    KNIGHTS- Awesome!! 1= armour save, strength 6 on the charge. stick a grandmaster in there and they will dominate most things on the charge! Even a captain is a potent addition to a knightly unit.

    GREATSWORDS- Personally i prefer these as a detachment where they are almost guaranteed the charge. Otherwise there annoying tendancy to strike last means you lose expensive models every turn in an extended combat without striking back.

    FLAGGELANTS- Basically berserkers, there obvious and most useful strength of being unbreakable means they will tie up everything they come into contact with. Use them in conjunction with a flanking unit of knights and you will carve up unit after unit.

    STATE TROOPS- Cheap, effective infantry. These guys are NOT meant to go on the offensive (except against skaven slaves or similiar) they are primarily walls, i.e. the enemy hits them hard, hurts their thick skull and is then mopped up by detachments/vengeful swordsmen.

    Try shooting a cannon ball down the flank of a unit of minotaurs or ogres and the entire unit will disappear (str 10 d6 wounds per ogre)
    A smart general wont expose such a flank. But if he does, it will be hilarious from your point of view only.

    The key to beating any opposition to the empire is its diversity. Use everything in concert with everything else and you will win every time.

    Regards
    Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that, who cares, your a mile away and you have his shoes!!

    Chuck Norris invented water

  8. #7
    Senior Member DotR's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    33
    Posts
    470
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    30 (x1)

    The empire is not bad at anything.
    Empire lacks maneouverabilty. Huge weakness there, only the pistoliers help out with this function, and they are still only ld7 which is a hindrance for fast cav.

    Outriders used as a static fire base are usually even more effective than handgunners, slightly more expensive but fantastic. And the grenade launching blunderbuss is superb.
    Outriders are just as effective, but much easier to kill and they take up a special choice. In effect, awful. The grenade launching blunderbuss reduces you to 1 shot for what, 50 points?

    KNIGHTS- Awesome!! 1= armour save, strength 6 on the charge. stick a grandmaster in there and they will dominate most things on the charge! Even a captain is a potent addition to a knightly unit.
    A priest is more effective and more cost effective.

    GREATSWORDS- Personally i prefer these as a detachment where they are almost guaranteed the charge. Otherwise there annoying tendancy to strike last means you lose expensive models every turn in an extended combat without striking back.
    They cannot be detachments, only parent units. They are a great anvil unit if you design your army around them though.

    STATE TROOPS- Cheap, effective infantry. These guys are NOT meant to go on the offensive (except against skaven slaves or similiar) they are primarily walls, i.e. the enemy hits them hard, hurts their thick skull and is then mopped up by detachments/vengeful swordsmen.
    You can make a combined charge with your detachments, though it is best to make the enemy come to you.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Captain Snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Age
    27
    Posts
    722
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    29 (x2)

    Empire lacks maneouverabilty. Huge weakness there, only the pistoliers help out with this function, and they are still only ld7 which is a hindrance for fast cav.
    But Empire also have the ability to take an all cavalry army if they wish it. Plus they have access to the lores of shadow and beasts.

    And you shouldn't underestimate ld 7. With a musician they have a better than average chance to rally + leadership 7 is better than numerous other fast cav. units (goblins, skellies) and matches quite a few more (marauders, rats, Centigors, ogres etc.)

    Outriders are just as effective, but much easier to kill and they take up a special choice. In effect, awful. The grenade launching blunderbuss reduces you to 1 shot for what, 50 points?
    A trifle impractical but adds mightily to the character of the army which is a must IMO.

    And cost wise. 5 outriders put out the same amount of shots as 15 handgunners but they take up less room.

    Their compact size is their main advantage as you can bring all their weapons to bare through smaller gaps in troops, terrain etc.

    I concede that 5 outriders would die quicker than 15 handgunners however, touche.

    A priest is more effective and more cost effective.
    More cost effective than a vanilla captain? i disagree. Not in <750 points armies

    But i understand a priests merit in larger units where points per model comes good. Also, he allows a unit of flaggelants to be taken as a core choice.

    They cannot be detachments, only parent units. They are a great anvil unit if you design your army around them though.
    Blast!

    I agree with you here.

    Regards
    Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that, who cares, your a mile away and you have his shoes!!

    Chuck Norris invented water

  10. #9
    Senior Member DotR's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    33
    Posts
    470
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    30 (x1)

    But Empire also have the ability to take an all cavalry army if they wish it. Plus they have access to the lores of shadow and beasts.

    And you shouldn't underestimate ld 7. With a musician they have a better than average chance to rally + leadership 7 is better than numerous other fast cav. units (goblins, skellies) and matches quite a few more (marauders, rats, Centigors, ogres etc.)
    I do love my pistoliers but it still stands that empire is lacking in the maneouverability department. There are no combat skirmishing units which is really the main point. The pistoliers are still quite good, and can actually inflict some casualties with their fire whereas most fast cav. cannot.

    A trifle impractical but adds mightily to the character of the army which is a must IMO.
    Hey if you like them then thats awesome.

    I suppose there is just so much fighting for the special slot.

    Inner Circle Knights
    The much needed pistoliers
    The mortar which is much more cost effective than the rocket battery
    And the good old great cannon.

    The outriders can also see in 360 degrees which is a nice bonus. Still not enough to warrent taking up a special slot for me though. Also a bit too risky.

    More cost effective than a vanilla captain? i disagree. Not in <750 points armies
    Of course not then, you don't need any magic defense. In general people play 1k, 1.5k and 2k points. The hatred really does beg to be used with knights. Abilities that buff your troops are always stronger than ones that buff the characters for the points.


    I think in the end the empire really does have a lot of options. The empire also lacks a lot, but of course an army cannot have everything.

  11. #10
    Member muppetconstrictor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Essex UK
    Age
    38
    Posts
    116
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    -9 (x0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Snowball View Post

    Outriders used as a static fire base are usually even more effective than handgunners, slightly more expensive but fantastic. And the grenade launching blunderbuss is superb.


    Regards
    Outriders do take up less room, and do cost around the same points as 15 handgunners, However handgunners do not suffer an additional -1 for multipul shot, a modifier which is crippling to outriders chances of hitting even a barn door!
    The Herts & Essex Blood Bowl League - 30 active members and still looking to expand!

    Check out our website at http://www.hebbl.co.uk

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts