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I was once again contemplating my army list and wondering if it was possible to win against the new vampire counts and chaos demons without a war altar/steam tank. I know it's possible, but my question should rather be: "with a good success margin" (like 50%, what we should strive for).
Current tournament vampire counts and demon builds are really cheesy and powerful. But can we still play like we should without resorting to too much cheese sauce? I know that the lore of light on the waltar should help against undead and demons--but can we still thrive?
Well, what is cheese? Seriously, is it taking individual units or the army itself. Personally, I don't find a steam tank chessy in itself, the instant it start taking wounds, it's effectiveness drops dramatically (the only consolidating factor to that is the opponent doesn't get points for it unless they completely destroy it). And even the war altar itself is vulnerable to cannon fire or anything str 7, it can be taking out early in the game. I believe very few individual units are broken (Rhinox being one of them) and that I would go so far to say that the war altar is getting pretty close to it. So for playing these things, I think it actually comes down to min maxing, taking as many of these guys with minimum core chooses, where this no longer resembles an actual army. I cannot say for myself what it takes to beat VC and Daemons, I haven't played against them in tournaments and the times I have faced them, I have had a pretty bad record (two wins, two draws and six loses). But I do know that they are powerful, that they are incredible tough at that point level (especially nurgle) and that you really only have a few turns to work some magic to beat them or set yourself up to. And well, I think you should ask yourself if the bar has really been set so high that the only way to remain competitive is to create a very abusive list. It is a question of morality and honor. And I can't say what is right even from this because I haven't experienced it myself but I think that is what I would ask myself.
edit: By the way, at the Vegas GT, one of guys I know came out in the top ten, I think specifically 8th, with an Ork and Goblin army. Pretty impressive and goes to show that the player matters just as much as the army. Besides that, it was one Empire guy and the rest were VC and Daemon.
Last edited by JakeHunter52; September 19th, 2008 at 23:57.
I think empire can win without the cheese. I've started to not run the walter, just the lector in a unit of inner circle knights. Steam tank is good, but when I use it I try to never actually charge anythign unless I absolutely have to. It's just a psychological weapon, helps to control the battle field. But it could easily be replaced by a cannon and 20 flaggies.
Empire can definitely win without the cheese. I think list design is important in the way in which you need a cohesive list, battle plan before you even deploy, and solid tactics to compete with braindead VCs and Daemons.