Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
ok ive got back into warhammer and have took on my local stores fearsome regulars, most of which are chaos players. in 6 games i have won 1 and got horribly massacared in the past 5 in a row.
what on earth does it take to blunt the advance of chaos warriors? volly guns do sweet fa too them, mark of nurgle so im on 6's to hit, 6's what sort of bs is that eh? so i run the risk of blowing up and even when i get the shots out i have to roll to hit and need 6's thats pathetic for a rare choice even 5's for long range is terrible. my cannons have under performed each and every time tho that prolly cause of bad luck rolling dice.
captian kiss my ring has saved my little remaining faith in the imperial hero's burning head and pistol whipping the single maurder horeman standing. the wizard lord and 2 lvl 2 wizards havent dominated magin like i hoped they would, however 2 dispel scrlls has blunted the nurgle onslaught (some of there spells are beyond nasty).
my knights dont charge as much as i want them too as the only viable charges arethe chaos knights witch i aint that daft or the big units of chosen footmen. either way my knights cant stand up too really.
pistoliers are worth there weight in gold for anti skirmish units, here horsemen horsemen horsemen...
as for the handgunners 6's too hit 4-5's too wound and normally a ward save means i lucky if i kill one.
so what im saying is oh forum wizards and empire generals look at my army list below and help me tweak it too give me a more fighting chance vrs chaos.
wizard lord lvl 4 ring of volans
wizard lvl 2 dispel scroll *2
wizard lvl 2 dispel scroll *2
captian, pegasus, pistol, lance, full plate, shield doomfire ring (captian kiss my ring)
10 knights full command inner circle
10 knights fullcommand
5 knights full command
10 hand gunners
1 volley gun
please note this is what i had left from my old gaming days and have ressurected so im preparing to develop it.
One thing I noticed was that you have no R&F units. Take Greatswords if you have to, but try to get at least two solid infantry units. Otherwise, you're needing to break them on the charge (never a good thing). Give them both detachments (halberdiers are always nice, and handgunners can also do well with the Support Fire rule).
Why does the captain have the Doomfire Ring? It seems a little useless unless you're happy with panicking marauders the whole time. Once you have your R&F units, maybe make him a BSB, and drop the pegasus.
Otherwise, your list isn't too bad. Drop the unit of five knights, and a unit of 10, and you should be able to get some decent numbers in there.
first off thank you for your thoughts an taking the time to help me with this soul destroying problem.
hmm ok, well great swords take a special so do i drop cannons? pistoliers or inner circle on ma knights?
my line of thought with no r&f was against chaos footmen no state troop would get a save at all, str5 and going first put me at minus 2 so only swordsmen get anything and thats a 6+. i thought that would be lambs too the slaughter. i mean dont they have 3 attacks each so they have more than enough to kill 5-6 too negate any outnumber/rank bonus so im losing combat by 3+ and running on a 4+.
am i in error in this? rank of 5 chaos warriors 3 attack each normally got a hero in there so thats 15-18 attacks 3 to hit, 2 too kill. rank and file even with a hero of my own in there would never hope to stand.
in practice does it work out like this ArchonFarseerGuy?
the captian i have used too kill mauraders horsemen as i have seen them too be used just too fill up the core unit slot, given flails ws4 and str5 on first turn i cant afford to give them a charge the favoured tactic seem too be too combine them with chaos hounds too charge block my knights. a flyer was easy to flap at there flank and blast the ring all across them, itll generally kill 3-4 and pistol whip the survivor.
i do not see why you looking at halbiders??? no armour, no decent ws, str4 aint exactly something to write home about. tho ill admit ive never liked them.
again tell me your opinion plz
The VHS packs a nasty little surprise, especially with a GW. All of a sudden, the hero is no longer a problem. WP with GW vs something big and scary with no ward save= big and scary thing with no ward save dead before they can strike a lot of the time.
The way you beat Chaos warriors is indeed not by kills, but through static CRes. With the Detachment system, you'll get three ranks, outnumber, a banner, a flank charge, your detachments will strike first, and you deny them ranks. You're up by six before dice are rolled, and that lead could increase by more. This is where Halberdiers come in handy. Most things struggle to dent the CW's armour, but S4 as a detachment can make a fair amount of difference over their more mundane counterparts.
If them hitting on 3s is a problem, take swordsmen. They hit on 4s, wound on 3s, and you get a 5+ save from it. It is true that Chosen can take a silly amount of attacks (four each to my understanding), but they are very expensive, and have to be Khornate to get that many. You can shoot them to death and lead them on a dance around the board.
Again, Nurgle is a bit more of a problem. Something like Hellstorm Rockets (which use a S5 pie plate and no rolling to hit) or Flagellants (who have shoddy WS to begin with, tons of attacks, and flails, and will never run. Ever) can be handy.
Your army looks like the good 'ol fashioned knight breaking army: Break them on the charge.
Unfortunately, Empire knights aren't that good. Even Inner Circle Knights can only be expected on occasion to break whatever they're charging, and only on the flank. It's generally accepted that Empire Knights are support units, not game winners like the Bretonnians. In addition there is no line for your cavalry to maneuver around, so you're almost forced to strike from the front. In addition you've got no effective combat characters, such as a warrior priest or even a captain to enhance their killing potential.
To that end I believe you should move towards developing infantry blocks supported by heavy artillery and knights.
As you've already mentioned Nurgle marks make traditional shooting from handgunners and the volleygun almost worthless. To that end unguided artillery, such as the helblaster and to a lesser extent the mortar are far superior, even if they are more inaccurate.
Many feel that the new 7th edition focus on elite, hardhitting units is making Infantry blocks of swordsmen obsolete, as the primary reason for taking them, the 4+ save, is being defeated rather easily. Thus, the Halberd can be readily considered as defensively swordsmen add little to the table, and all you've got at that point is what few lucky survivors are left. But, some folks swear by that occasional 4+ save and WS 4, so it's really up to you to decide what you think is best, as from a mathimatical standpoint the differences between spearmen, swordsmen and halberdiers are so minute that you can ignore them.
Generally you'll want at least two blocks, preferrably three, holding your line at 25 men per regiment, supported by a detachment of 9-10 men and a detachment of 5 missile troops if you'd still like to use your handgunners.
If you still want to make use of your twenty five or so knights, I suggest using them in such a manner: Your knights should be broken down into smaller 5 man regiments with just a musician . This makes them more maneuverable and can fulfill a pseudo fast-cav role before the lines finally clash: They can march block, chase other cav around and make use of the bait/flee tactic.
Get your Infantry blocks charged. As stupid as it sounds, you want them to hold the enemy in place. Of course a fully ranked regiment of Chaos Knights will decimate any infatry regiment you throw at it, so you will want to make extensive use of those helblasters/cannons we mentioned earlier. At that point you can flank or even rear charge with your knights and through the combination of static combat resolution and the CR gained from your knights you can reliably break your foe.
If you'd like, you can keep your inner cricle knights as a hammer unit, but to make full use of them you'll want a Grand Master, Captain or Warrior Priest with Laurels leading them as well as remaining an expensive and unwieldly 10 man regiment. This unfortunately makes them ill-suited for the earlier mentioned pseudo fast cav tactics, but makes them dangerous. Quite a few eggs in one basket though, and you may end up basing your entire strategy around them charging, generally not a good idea.
I'd also like you to reconsider your characters.
Heavy magic for the empire is unfortunately only moderate magic by other army standards, but if you'd like to still go magic heavy I suggest you drop at least the wizard and replace him with a warrior priest. He provides good leadership to an infantry block, makes them somewhat more effective in combat and his prayers can assist in drawing out dispel dice for those big spells. Mounted he can dramatically increase the effectiveness of a regiment of knights thanks to hatred. If you do want to keep your second wizard, drop his dispel scrolls and give him the rod of power so he can store unused power/dispel dice and give you more flexibility in the magic phase.
I think you should reconsider your Pegasus captain and his armament. Against most armies with vulnerable rear troops or artillery he is exceptionally helpful with the equipment you've given him, but against chaos as you've mentioned his usefulness is only against fast cav. If you use your knights in the pseudo fast-cav role I mentioned earlier it makes your captain's role redundant. To thant end I recommend turning him into either a standard bearer or replacing the doomfire ring with the casket, sucking up magic all along as he goes.
If you want to keep your Wizard Lord, I suggest giving him VHS, as ArchonFarseerGuy has mentioned is great to kill pesky powerhouse lords. Your foe will probably accept a duel with your Wizard Lord, which will probably result in a victory for you.
In the end, just like knights, characters are there to support Empire infantry blocks by providing leadership and help generate CR by being superior to other rank and file soldiers or slaying company champions in challenges. Without the VHS, they won't win challenges against enemy heroes.
Also, keep your two cannons. Cannons are invaluable for the Empire. It is possible to win without them, but you'll need to make drastic changes to your list to do so.
In general I'd like you to keep in mind that the Empire army is based on the sum of its parts, not what a unit can do individually. You can find some wonderful synergies looking through the list. In addition, the Empire is an infantry army first and foremost. It succeeds and fails based on how well the infantry can hold while support elements from knights and characters can generate the necessary CR to break the enemy. Unfortunately our infantry are relatively weak, and so they rely on softening from what is perhaps our army's most powerful component: Warmachines, and to a lesser extent handgunners and magic.
Tips against Chaos:
DO use blast template weapons and cannons. Try to character snipe as well.
DO shoot them. Fill them with holes, lots of holes. Less effective against Nurgle troops, but if it's not Nurgle, shoot it.
DO outnumber them. We can't beat them on quality, so do it with QUANTITY
DO stock up on leadership. Empire troops are cowardly without characters/general/banners
DON'T think anything we have can break them on the charge by itself.
DON'T expect anything we have to win by generated combat resolution. For Empire, it's always about static CR, baby.
DON'T engage fully ranked units. Just don't.
Last edited by Sayomi Akimoto; November 9th, 2008 at 13:26. Reason: Grammatical AWESOME
owah dude that a lot of text.
yeah it was a good ol fashioned knight army back in the day when i could match chaos knights with a unit of captian with swords that dissallowed armour saves. (and magic was a card based system)
ive rapidly become diss illusioned with the knights and i have bought a box of empire swordsmen, only 10 but it will grow when i get a bit more funding.
ive bought the empire generals box and given the mounted guy a mace and a bald head. so it IS a warrior priest.
ive gug out a old grand marshal so i gonna drop the unit of 10 plain knights and see how much infantry i can get for that.
si ive dropped the wiz lord for a knight lordy guy and the lvl 2 wizard for a warr priest. ill let u know if it does any better.
I've found that a real breaker is a solid block of IC Knights of the WW with Luthor Huss leading them. It causes fear, has S6 attacks, and Luthor can cast Soulfire to boot. I've sent many a unit scattering using this. Not certain how it would fare against the new Chaos though...
Why not just give the knights the demon banner and stick a normal Warrior Priest in with a magical weapon?I've found that a real breaker is a solid block of IC Knights of the WW with Luthor Huss leading them. It causes fear, has S6 attacks, and Luthor can cast Soulfire to boot. I've sent many a unit scattering using this. Not certain how it would fare against the new Chaos though...
It'd be slightly cheaper depending on your loadout, or the same. Sure, you'll miss out on Luthor Huss' slightly higher weapon skill and ward save, but that higher weapon skill is a bit of a moot point with Hatred and if you need that ward save you really need to reconsider what you're hitting in the first place.
It's an effective breaker either way however, but it's not something I'd like to field. Too many eggs in one basket and building battle strategies around it, that sort of thing.
I'd prefer to take the same points you spent on your breaker unit and buy more 5 man knights with only a musician. That would give me two or three maneuverable elements in comparison to your one that are expendable yet can dictate both flank and rear charges as well as deliver twice as many attacks.
But, whatever floats your boat. I suppose it'd be of standard effectiveness against chaos IF you can keep your anvil from dying.
That seems to be the main point most players stress against chaos: All of our static CR seems to falter in the face of their sheer killiness. I suppose that's where our shooting comes in...
TBH, I don;t see why a unit of 1-up save knights CAN'T defeat a unit of Chaos Knights. You should have roughly double the number, be S5 or 6 (depending in IC) on the charge. Taking a Runefang wielding caharcter in the unit, you should cause a lot of damage to the Chaos Knights. Don;t let yourself get charged by Chaos units under any circumstances, you want to be charging.
A unit or two of flagellants as a tarpit will be an excellent proposition, especially if you can force frenzied Chaos Knights of Khorne at them. Then hit them in the flanks with multiple units, and watch the rest of teh Chaos army crumble. Apart from the Knights and potentially Chosen warriors, Empire troops should be able to stand toe-to-toe with anything in the Chaos list.
Join the LO army system! http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...t&uniqueid=910
to be honest im now teetering on the edge of giving up.
cannons have killed a total of 50 points in past 7 games. its making me sick to my stomach to think it. its not that im uber competative or anything, im not but i would like too see them be able to hit every now and then.
ive swapped my army around a lot under some of your critisims and some from my own ideas. dropped a wizard lord and took a arch lector on war alter. dropped a unit of 10 knights for 35 swordsmen and 10 swordsmen detachment. dropped my volley gun due too its incredably poor performances. dropped the demon banner because it just not worth it. dropped a wizard for a warrior priest in my unit of innercircle knights, and dropped the pegasus for a battle standard with the griffon standard to go in my swordsmen unit.
rules query here.
as is sooo predictable in my games against chaos the rest of his army got delt with quickly but there the one big unit of 20+ warriors with 3 characters in that march across the center of the table and take me apart.
well this time i was ready for when he hit my battle line with aforementioned swordsmen, war alter and detachment of 10 swordsmen.
just so i get this clear (i might put up a diagram if anyone would be so kind as to explain it too me.) my opponent has marched a unit with no support at all into charge range of all 3 units.
however because my opponent put a 20 degree slant on his unit they were facing squarly at my detachment.
my turn i declare my charges parent swords into the unit of warriors detachment support charging and the alter is charging.
as my opponent was quick to state to me that i nowadays have too move units in the order i declare the charges, baffled as too why this makes a difference i didnt question it.
and now how he interpreted the rules was by putting my parent unit into the front of his unit and then lining the war alter into the front arch aswell. thus leaving my detachment having a failed charge moving 4 forward and then being wasted points for the rest of the game.
so is this just a very poorly thought out rule in the empire book or have i been duped? i know a lot of ppl might say it was poor unit positioning but i say its pathetic to claim so if i have a line, all my units can see and are in range too not allow a charge.
i mean since when is it a clever tactic to send any unit off on its own into combat without support?
again if i get a reply ill put up a diagram too show exactly what happened.