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Greetings and salutations fellow mustache-aficionados, ==Me== here.
In ==My== search for a new army, I stumbled upon the Empire. Initially I though this was just Imperial Guard not in Spaace, but after checking out the fluff and models, I have to say I'm a big fan.
I made up a 2k list to go up against ==My== brother's Dwarfs and got spanked. It was bad.
General on warhorse w/ speculum, hammer of judgement, and holy relic
Warrior Priest on foot
BSB w/ Griffon standard
24 spearmen (w/ WP), 6 handgunners, 6 halberdiers
24 swordsmen (w/ BSB ), 6 handgunners, 6 halberdiers
5 Knights of the Inner Circle
2x 6 Pistoliers
Runelord on Anvil
2x 20 Dwarfs
2x 20 Longbeards
4 Bolt Throwers
He sat there and blew ==My== blocks away and when I managed to get close he used the anvil to move out and get the drop on ==Me==. Never stood a chance.
I ran the state troops in the middle, with halberdiers on one flank and handgunners opposite. The blocks performed well, with the WP and spears running off some Longbeards while the Swordsmen and BSB held a unit of Dwarfs in place before running off. The flanking and stand and shooting detachments worked fairly well, though the Halberdiers didn't do much beyond flank and die.
The Flagellants held a big unit of Longbeards in place for a while, I like them.
The General and Knights bounced off of a unit of Dwarfs, the general couldn't use his speculum to good effect and the knights didn't kill enough to break them.
The Pistoliers ran around annoying cannon crews but didn't do much on their own, even with 14 shots! One unit tied the Runelord down for a couple turns though.
The Great Cannon misfired and blew up and the Helbaster was never in range since he didn't move his army until the counter-attack.
The WP was very handy, BSB not so much, General sucked, and the wizard didn't do much himself (was to be expected).
So, I ask you, how might I create a successful Empire army and use it to good effect in battle?
I'm not an Empire expect, but one of my good friends plays dwarfs a lot. He uses a similar strategy by not ever moving his dwarfs due to their slow movement. In a case with an army that stays at their end firing the whole time, I usually take more knights and less guns so I can get there as fast as possible. Dwarfs will still give a war when this happens since they are pretty stout little guys, but at least their artillery won't be as much a threat when you have all of your units tied up in some combat.
Even with dwarfs, use a few knights (maybe even pistoliers) to charge up as fast as possible and charge his artillery, that way you have to fight the crew and can get them out of commission while your other foot units make their way up the battlefield.
Someone else can probably give more specific advice, but this is what I would use against dwarfs.
5 Knights, even inner circle ones accompanied by a General, are very likely to bounce off dwarven infantry in most cases; even on the charge they will most likely cause 3 to 5 wounds which hardly beat the passive bonuses an infantry block yields. And even if they do, the dwarf should be losing only by 1 or 2 points.
That combined with dwarven ld9 and a BSB nearby means they gonna stay in most cases.
And after the charge, you're stuck with them, doing less damage so your knights are the ones who have to take the break tests in subsequent rounds.
The first tip boils down to: your cavalry should never frontally charge a fully ranked infantry block (well, against low toughness and leadership units it might work but it's still risky).
Rather try to set them up for flank charges or run war machines down with them (If you still wanna go at large blocks with them at least set them up with the Warrior Priest to make sure that most of the lances will connect)
Personally, I'd make them not inner circle and just give them a musician. And with that freed special choices slot I'd field another cannon (if the points for it can be scraped up)
This leads to a second tip/point:
Empire Artillery is good and affordable, but in your case the Hellblaster was a bit unwieldy (if the enemy won't move towards you, it will be out of range at the beginning), so either replace it with the second cannon I mentioned or replace it with a rocket launcher. granted it's a bit of a gamble to get a decent hit, but the 5"-template at strength5 speaks for itself.
On another note the equipment of your general was a bit unluckily chosen (not the Holy Relic, a 4+ ward save is good nonwithstanding), but van Horstmann when your opponent has only few characters (Only BSB and Runelord would make it somewhat useful and you won't reach the latter very soon if at all) and the hammer of judgement is also somewhat limited against the dwarven leadership.
Besides, the empire General is not too big as a fighter (well, he is a human...) so there's not too much choice. For offensive purposes, either give him the sword of power (with st6 he will be quite hurting the regular dwarven infantry) or go all out and give him a Runefang which is also nicely bypassing the high toughness and armor saves of dwarven characters (properly eqiupped on a barded warhorse he comes with a 1+ armor save anyways)
For a more sneaky approach you could also give him the Sword of Fate and mark the enemies BSB, but that's a bit tricky and something of a one-trick-pony.
Maybe exchange the handgunner detachments with crossbow detachments (same range issue as the Hellblaster)
Oh, and if you know you're going against dwarfs then a lone wizard is wasted points.
In your mentioned setup, it was 3 or 4 power dice (depending what level your wizard had) and a single bound spell by the priest against 7 dispel dice (plus whatever dispelly gear his runelord had with him)
More wizards/warrior priests, the Rod of Power and/or power stones are needed to best dwarf with magic, i.e. getting more off than just the odd d6 st4 hits by a magic missile which dwarf infantry can soak up quite a number of times.
Especially the Rod of Power (since your own dispel dice are outright wasted against dwarfs, so try to turn them int power dice if you wanna go magic)
It ain't easy bein' green... :-)
Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.
I had initially made the list to be a take-all-comers style list, so the Wizard was a caddy. But, when I knew I was up against Dwarfs, we agreed to let ==Me== swap out for the Staff and a Power Stone. Even with it and the Ring of Volans on the WP I couldn't get through his 7 DD reliably. I rolled Spirit of the Forge and RoBI and got a few kills with them, namely nuking his BSB and killing off a few Longbeards, and the bound Law of Gold worked a few times (he didn't field too many magic items beyond standards, going for numbers over kit), but the Prayers never had a chance.
I shouldn't have charged the Knights in solo, but I was really hurting at the time (stupid wrath and ruin). I play Skaven too much, not used to cavalry at all
I'm not sure what kind of Lord to run. The Templar Grand Master seems like a good pick for superior stats and ItP for his buddies. I'm thinking Sword of Power and Shroud of Magnus or White Cloak and Ring of Volans. Dead killy, plenty protected, ItP and MR2 to cover his friends or a good bound spell.
I don't want to go very magic heavy, so the Wizard Lord is out.
I don't feel right using an Arch Lector (there's only 2 and everyone uses one), so he's out.
The General would be the economy choice I gather. I'd probably give him a similar set up, Sword of Power, Shroud of Magnus or White Cloak and Ring of Volans.
For Heroes, I gotta have the WP for all his awesomeness. Armor of Meteoric Iron, Ring of Volans and a great weapon work well.
A level 2 scroll caddy will comprise ==My== magic defense.
The last Hero will be a BSB with the Griffon Standard or a Master Engineer. Full plate and barded steed for the BSB, running in a biggish unit of Swordsmen. The Engineer would have a repeater handgun or Pigeon bombs and hang out with a Cannon crew.
Beyond that, I'll probably end up running 1 block of Swordsmen w/ detachments, 1 block of Flagellants, 1-2 unit of Knights, and maybe some handgunners w/ cheap free company for Core.
Special would be a unit of Greatswords with the WP and detachments, 2 units of Pistoliers and a Great Cannon.
Rare would be a Helbaster or Hellstorm, not sure of which really.
Do you think something like that would work? Or should I swap out Greatswords for another Cannon and pick up spearmen?
Hi, just wanted to put my 2 penn'erth in.
I don't think your list is that bad, but there are a couple of tweaks i'd make to go against your friends Dwarfs.
Firstly dump the Helblaster, not reliable enough! The Rocket battery is good fun, but personally I'd go for a Mortar or 2nd Cannon.
Secondly have normal Knightly order knights and bump up the unit size, If you combine this with a WP on horseback you can have a unit that Hate the enemy, should stop them bouncing off the Dwarfs on the charge so easily! Also you can easily make a mounted WP using the Knight of the White Wolf and Flagellant plastic sets- its a very cool option. If you give the knights the Steel standard it also increases their charge range, which is handy to make sure their charge reaches.
The General is ok, although as has been suggested swap the hammer for one of the other weapons, sword of Power for example is a good one.
PLAN CLAN MAN!!
He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man- S. Johnson
i say if you run knights, run this block:
8 knights of the inner circle
teplar grand master w/ sword of power and laurels of victory
warrior priest on barded warhorse w/ van horstman's speculum.
its super pricy but dead killy.
Last edited by SlayerofAsmodean; February 24th, 2009 at 19:20. Reason: oops
--Famous last words of Asmodean
I once beat a Dwarf general by using Crossbows, Flaggies, Greatwords, Knights, and helstorms.
My basic core were the knights, and then I ran my greatswords with 2 crossbow detachments each. There were 15 GSs, and they 6 crossbowmen in each detachment. Then I stuck my Knights on the flanks. My Flaggies went up the middle.
The plan was to use my crazies to tie up his breakers or longbeards, with great success. My Greatswords advanced to his lines, while my Helstorms tried to hit his artillery or null his shooting as best I could. I never attempted to charge, just moved up close enough to start shooting the daylights of out him with my crossbows, and threaten his flanks with the knights. He had to come to me, but with the Anvil that wasn't too bad. He got the drop on me and I shot him full of crossbow bolts again, then flanked with my knights. It worked out okay, and it would probably do a good job against your bro's list, since his weapons rely on hitting big blocks and piercing, and he can't really bring too many shots to bear either. You could even swap the crossbows for Handguns if you wanted, since you don't have to worry about out ranging his own riflemen.
a couple of rules I follow to give empire a chance. Empire after all is the most flexible army and probably the most balanced (they can hang with anyone, outside of nasty demon lists and maybe super VC)
empire knights are not combat troops, but they are fairly tough due to the 1+ and expendable due to their cost (5 w/musician) They can be used as fast cav, without the free reform. They hit flanks well, flee and rally decently, etc.
2 cannons can deal with most things, big nasty monsters, chariots, other warmachines, etc. There should be at least 2 cannons in every 2k+ list.
Rocket battery will either miss, misfire, or destroy 3/4 a unit. Against dwarves, it's harder to miss, since they castle up. They are the only rare choice (outside of flaggies) to take.
Swordsmen are the only core unit ranked up I would take (with a unit of more swordsmen to flank and your favorite shooter)
I like crossbows due to the range, but handgunners work as well.
I don't really like your characters. Archlector is easily the best, but I prefer the grandmarshall. The general is fairly weak in my opinion. 2 wizards, one with rod of power and one with a bound item is nice for a balanced list. I also like the Captain on the Pegasus. He has lots of different roles he can play.
Thanks guys, that helps a lot. I'll work on a revamped list, give it a few tries, and let you know how it goes.
So, for characters, would Templar Master, Warrior Priest, and 2 Battle Wizards be a good set up? I like the hitty Lord, Warrior Priests are winsauce, and the Wizards provide extra magic defense and maybe get some spells off if possible.
The silly thing is, that the Warrior priest is actually better to take in a unit of knights thant the templar master (due to hatred) The Templar master sits well in a unit of swordsmen giving his leadership to everyone around them (leadership tests can make or break you esp. if you're used to playing DE)
Templar master is decent for a human though.