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I've recently started playing Empire and There's a list (at the 1250 level) at my local store that nobody can beat. Its a pure khorne daemons list with 3 heralds on juggernaughts in I think units of 15 bloodletters with 6 flamers of tzeentch in support. The only Idea I could come up with on how to beat it with Empire is a gunline with mild combat support just to keep him off my guns.
Point being I wanted to ask you more experienced players what your list might look like, how you'd beat that daemons list etc.
Thanks in advance.
with a exalted champion/sorcerror or a unafilliated demon prince/exalted demon as general I take it? That is the only way that army list can work ,so you at minimum are looking at an undivided chaos leader.
From an empire standpoint, it seems a gunline army COULD beat this army. From a point wise, based on what he would have to spend on his general alone, there won't be much else, so yes, a lot of hand gunners, cannons, hellblasters should do some damage. he has the demonic ward save so that will still be there.
if you were to do the gunline army, run crossbowmen instead of gunners.
Longer range, and since they dont have armour it wont matter about the AP.
Pistoliers may be useful.
GMJoe- At a small 1250pt level, he can't run any additional characters. He has NO magic, but remember that Khorne units all have MR2. Magic isn't a concern for them in the same way as it is with mortals.
This list is pretty cheese-tastic, and honestly, I'd refuse to play against it in friendly games. However, if you are truly bent on the idea of beating him, I may have to suggest that shooting isn't really the way.
Every one of the Daemons is going to have at least a 5+ Ward Save, and no amount of S4, AP shooting is going to get through it. By the time you roll your hits from a regiment of 10 crossbowmen OR handgunners, you're looking at 5 hits, causing 3.3 wounds, and he's going to save 1.3 of those every time. That's not looking too hot, and that's assuming that he's already half way there.
Against a gunline, he's going to push his units to the front of his DZ, so he's only going to be 24 inches away from your own DZ. If you set up on your back edge, he's ~36" away. The demons will cover that in 3-4 turns of marching, and you'll only pick them up with your infantry-portable-weapons after they moved for a turn.
Sorry mate, but a gunline isn't going to cut it for you.
Daemons really cannot handle combat resolution. They can certainly lay down the smack in the "to hit" phase, but they don't do so hot with static combat resolution. Of course, Empire armies are amazing when it comes to static combat resolution. Especially when we only need to be stopping 3 units.
Here's what I would suggest:
Run about 3 cannons, for his Juggies. They don't get a "look-out-sir!" roll because they're mounted in a foot regiment, S10 will mess their day up quite significantly, and D6wounds means that you only need to crack that ward save once.
For his blocks of Bloodletters, run big healthy regiments of infantry. If you think you'll get to hit back (you won't) take Halberdiers since they'll make mince meat of his bloodletters. But since you won't hit him back, go for spearmen. That way at least you get that second rank to swing. If you're really just looking to "hang in there" which is your best bet, grab Swordsmen with their WS4 and their shields.
Run them at 25-30 strong, give them a banner, and then get detachments.
It's fine to have missile weapon detachments, because the extra stand and shoot will just frustrate him, but you certainly want to have at least one combat detachment. Again, swords, halberdiers, or maybe even free company if you are expecting to get attacks back (he's only T3, so you can wound him with 2a each). Just beware that he can still fight to the flank and quite possibly get easy combat resolution from a soft target.
The combat detachment should probably be about 3x3, and aim to hit him in his flank. This will be enough to knock out his ranks.
Now he has no ranks, and your banners will cancel out. That leaves you with:
+1 flank charge
+1 out number
=5 kills that he will need just to tie you in combat. Hopefully for him he doesn't lose any additional points from your close combat.
Other things that you could consider using would be a Steamtank, since he is probably lacking very many excessively strong attacks. A regiment of 10 Outriders with repeater weaponry can provide enough shooting to vaporize a tiny regiment. His flamers can be killed by handguns or a good cavalry charge.
A BSB somewhere with the anti-demon banner (can't remember what it's called) might be of some help, or a unit of Flaggies to tie someone down until you can hit them at leisure, or a few nasty characters of your own.
Just remember to be as much of a jerk as he is, and target those Juggies early on with your cannons.
While cheesy, it's not as cheesy as it could be. I play mono khorne and mono tzeentch daemons (and mix them for tourneys >=]). Now, Sarathi, you have very sound logic with the juggers. However, rather than static combat ress against bloodletters, to be frank, they do drop like flies to shooting. Human toughness with a "bad" Ward save. There's only so much it can do. I can't believe I'm saying this, but, you could try a mortar. If it hits, it'll cause a fair few wounds.
Another fun thing, he has 2 DD. Warrior Priests+Soulfire for the winsies. They are MR1. If you can overload his magic phase, there's not much he can do about it.
As to the steam tank, it's not a good idea. Those heralds get 4 S7 attacks. That'll put the hurtin on that Tank. Even the letters are S5 (not that good, but once you get to about 6 wounds doing anything becomes difficult).
So, a Cannon or two will certainly see off those Jugger heroes. You could/should try WPs for Soulfire, against his flimsy magic defense. A level 2 would also work wonders, in combination with the two. Suggested Lore is always light. It's awesome against Daemons.
Anyway, I'd try something like:
2 WPs(one goes with the knights)
Lvl 2 Wizard w/ Lore of Light
5 Empire Knights w/Musician
25 Spearmen (Swordsmen aren't high enough WS to bother Khorne, and at best get a 6+ save) w/Detatchments, most likely of Halberdiers.
Pistoliers (are Excellent for march blocking.)
Also, flagellants could do well. As Bloodletters don't get too many attacks. Just keep them away from flamers.
Anyway, lecture over.
*steps down from soap box*
Hope this helped!!
Anyway, I have nothing to add but that I'd also take a VHS, just for good measure. Should be worth it just for the look on his face when you take his (powerful) stats and exchange them for your (disappointing) ones.
A couple of things to remember (expanding on previous points, really):
*Soulfire is cast on the model himself. This means MR75 would mean nothing, if you could get that high.
*Lore of Light is brilliant against Daemons because of all the S6 hits you can inflict. If you get spell 6, remember that it's not cast on any unit, like Soulfire, so no magic resistance. It's also convenient because of all the low-level casting spells, forcing him to stretch thin his already limited magic defence, though massed-MR2 won't help.
I wouldn't take a mortar. Since we don't have any rare choices (stank is obviously out, and we can get Flaggies as core with our Priest) we're free to take a Helstorm. They're way higher strength, so they'll really leave a mark when they hit. Also frees up more special choices for us to take, at the expense of making the list a little bit more top-heavy (although it's still more balanced than his).
Good plan batman!
Right, so with this new development, how about something like:
WP w/AoMI+some magic weapon
Lvl 2 Wizard w/Grey Wand
5 Knights w/Musician
25 Spearmen w/FC+10 Halberdiers
5 Pistoliers w/Outrider+Repeater Pistol
Great Cannon (twice as likely to fail LoS!) And you only need to kill 11 letters before you can cannon the jug to hell)
Helstorm Rocket Battery.
There, thoughts on that?
I'd just stick with the VHS warrior priest and use the rest of the points to try to find some extra bulk to the list. Remember- just 2 DD, whereas you already have 4PD.
I was considering telling you to knock down the Knight unit as well, but that actually got me thinking. Aside from the Juggers, this chaos guy isn't moving very fast. Perhaps an army with minimum core knights, and then tons of specials as either RHG-Outriders or even just Pistoliers, could be kinda funny.
I don't remember if DoC Khorne has frenzy, but you could really mess up his day since he has no range capabilities beyond those over taxed flamers.
That's what I love about the Empire- you can always find more than one way to skin a cat. On paper at least...