Anti-Waywatcher Setup - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Tashin's Avatar
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    Anti-Waywatcher Setup

    Woodelves

    Everyone hates them, right? They're always hiding in them damned forests, and never do they respect our frontline, just riding arround us, marchblocking us or hitting us hard in the flanks.. And most annoyingly of all, they often start the entire battle by deploying a unit of Waywatchers in our rear, totally destroying every strategic setup we've done ahead of the battle.
    But enough is enough! For just 40 points, you can garantee that no waywatchers will start behind you!

    The "Forest Stalkers" special rule of the waywatchers lets them deploy as Scouts but without the 10" minimum distance to the enemy, as long as there is no LoS, OR they can deploy within LoS, but just keep 12" away from you.
    So basicly, the Waywatchers can deploy 1" behind your strongest unit of knights, and start bursting them down from first round.

    To protect yourself from this evil trick you need: 1) a detachment unit of 5 Archers. 2) a large enough army to field the entire lenght of your deploymentzone.

    1) Archers are skirmishers, thereby having a 360 degree arch of sight. If deployed as suggested by the link (http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/2...chertactic.jpg), you will have line of sight with the entire of your armies rear!

    2) you need to spread out good, using the entire lenght of your deploymentzone, or atleast making sure, that there isnt a single spot which is more than 12" away from any one of your units. By doing this the waywatchers wont be able to deploy behind you using the "we can deploy 12inches away from you, even if you can see us" special rule, thereby forcing them to deploy in front of you!

    This is a pretty cheap (and very effective) way of protecting yourself from waywatchers. It doesnt garantee a victory on the battlefield, but atleast the bastards wont have the joy of deploying behind you.

    Good luck out there captains.

    - Tash


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  3. #2
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    Interesting. Good advise. I'll use this in a similar way with my Bretonnians from now on.

  4. #3
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    Brilliant...except that warmachine crews are skirmishers IIRC (I know they move like skirmishers, but I think their LOS is 360, as well...), and so would have the same 360 sightline, unless I've missed something... I love the bit about deploying so that you keep the waywatchers in front of you, but I'm pretty sure you don't need the archers detachment to provide the "I can see you!" part, just the cannon or mortar that you're almost certainly taking anyway.
    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
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    Member HighPlainDrifter's Avatar
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    I have another solution and you might not have to change your lists much to implement it. Place your knights or gs near a forest or grouped up on one side of the board, your opponent will not be able to resist pointing some ww in that direction. Essentially bait them to place their ww where you want them to. Fast cavalry have 360 line of site (EDIT: 360 line of site in the shooting phase), place them last and according to where the enemy places their scouts. Block off the ww line of site with a group or 2 of outriders or pistoliers. Waywatchers cost more points than pistoliers/outriders, so sacrificing a unit or two to take out a threatening group of ww is well worth it.

    I much prefer your 2nd strategy though. Making them place the ww unit in front of your line, but either way ranged empire troops will most likely be hitting ww on a 5 or 6.

    I've found that magic is the best way to defeat Waywatchers. A few magic missiles in their direction and they're toast. And Wood elf lists rarely have strong magic defence. Remember Movement-->Magic. Just turn your mage around and unleash hell. Not having to roll to hit their troops is a wood elf players worst nightmare.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Akaroth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighPlainDrifter View Post
    Not having to roll to hit their troops is a wood elf players worst nightmare.
    Agreed ...but waywatchers still march block even when out of line of sight. This can be just as deadly dividing your force by making one part move slower, or even by making you reserve part of your army to 'deal' with them. But the second you can hit them with a magic missile I would.
    "Knights had no meaning in this game. This wasn't a game for knights."


  7. #6
    Senior Member Tashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marnepup View Post
    Brilliant...except that warmachine crews are skirmishers IIRC (I know they move like skirmishers, but I think their LOS is 360, as well...), and so would have the same 360 sightline, unless I've missed something... I love the bit about deploying so that you keep the waywatchers in front of you, but I'm pretty sure you don't need the archers detachment to provide the "I can see you!" part, just the cannon or mortar that you're almost certainly taking anyway.
    Aye i was thinking about that too - and i've been searching the rulebook for proof of warmachinecrew being able to see 360 degrees, but as far as i can tell, the crew only move as if they were skirmishers. It says nothing about them being able to see 360 degrees. Besides, the cannon already has a front arch (for shooting), so you could make the argument, that the cannon (with crew) can only see their frontarch.. At any rate - in order to avoid any arguments over the table, i just thought that putting the 40 point archer-detachment in would be the best way to go.

    And thanks for your add HighPlainDrifter. My thread didnt really handle the subject of actually killing waywatchers , but as always your knowledge of the woodies has granted me a deeper wisdom.
    Rep coming all your ways

  8. #7
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    I'll take another look at the BRB when I get home...but I distinctly remember some verbiage about turning the warmachine to face its declared target (in practice, people don't seem to bother...), without any mention of a LOS test...which would suggest 360LOS. Another thing to look at would be the verbiage governing the targeting of warmachine crews for purposes of shooting...if the modifier for shooting at skirmishers applies, that would be further evidence that they are skirmishers, as opposed to simply moving as skirmishers. It could be that I'm being misled by a house rule. Like I said, I'll do my homework tonight!
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    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    Okay...I've done my homework. War machine crews move as skirmishers, but shooters targeting them do not suffer the -1 modifier for shooting at skirmishers (no doubt that big scary machine provides an excellent point of aim!) Unfortunately, this leaves the question in doubt, since there is neither rule book text nor an FAQ specifying war machine line of sight. There is a rule rule stating that the war machine may pivot to face any legal target in the shooting phase, while cautioning that any other movement will prevent the machine from firing that turn. I could ask the rhetorical question "how would the war machine know to pivot to face a target that it cannot see?"

    I think that the best solution, in the abscence of further official guidance, is to revert to the basic rules for LOS on page 8 of the BRB, and use the 90 degree arc to the front of the base of each individual crew member for all purposes other than firing the war machine. A great cannon crew would therefore be able to cover three (potentially overlapping) arcs, a reaper bolt thrower two such arcs. It is then incumbent on the player deploying such a unit to pay attention to how he faces the crew members. The only other logical answer is that, since you can freely pivot the machine to face any target, you can see in 360 for all other purposes, as well.

    /edit/

    Food for thought (another rhetorical question)...if the cannon is loaded, what else does the crew have going on, other than looking for things to shoot it at?
    Last edited by Marnepup; March 30th, 2010 at 02:16.
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    Senior Member Tashin's Avatar
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    Marne,
    Great to see someone really researching the matter. I like your arguments, but as I see it its really a matter of oppinion here - since you could just as easily argue for the opposite.

    I could ask the rhetorical question "how would the war machine know to pivot to face a target that it cannot see?"
    Well, fast cavalry also has the ability to shoot in a 360degree arch, just as the cannon does, but it specificly says, that though they can turn arround in the saddle and shoot at something behind them, they still have a front, rear and flank arch, proving that they do not have a 360 degree view. The same goes for chariots really. They do have a front and a rear, but they're able to shoot 360 degree, which doesnt mean they have a 360 degree line of sight. At any rate, in my oppinion it isnt nessesarily a logical conclusion, that cannons have the line of sight of skirmishers, just because they're able to fire all arround.

    is to revert to the basic rules for LOS on page 8 of the BRB, and use the 90 degree arc to the front of the base of each individual crew member for all purposes other than firing the war machine.
    While I would not disagree that this solution is good, I'd just like to comment that it depends how you interpret the cannon as a whole. Is it 4 models (3 crew and one cannon? and it that case.. can a cannon see by itself?) or is it 1 model? Chariots consist of chariot and crew, but stil just have 90 degree LoS. Same goes for monsters with one or more riders. One could argue that the same goes for warmachines.

    I am not nessesarily opposed to your arguments Marne, but as stated earlier I'd like to avoid discussions like this (especially during a tournament or other important games) which is why i recomend everyone to make good use of the "anti-waywathcer" trick

    - Tash
    Last edited by Tashin; March 30th, 2010 at 11:22.

  11. #10
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    Actually, since the cannon doesn't have a base, it doesn't have a front quadrant to see out of...it has no LOS of its own. LOS is measured from the Cannon, but that's only to prove that the intended trajectory of the projectile is physically possible. Anyway, I started a thread on the question of war machine crew LOS over in "rules help," and before I revealed the connection to waywatcher-banishment, the concensus (okay, only two people put in their $.02) was that war machine crews have 360 LOS...which is even more generous than the "each crewman has his own LOS" solution I offered.

    I'm not saying that your solution is bad, and it certainly leaves no room for discussion of the issue of whether a waywatcher unit can be seen back there...but I don't mind going at it hammer and tongs over a rules question, and using the cannoneers' LOS is cheaper, rules-wise. Especially if the skirmisher unit you propose taking has no other purpose (I'm opposed to tweaking for a specific opponent, and the backfield LOS trick would only really benefit you against waywatchers).
    Last edited by Marnepup; March 31st, 2010 at 21:10.
    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
    Brets 1997-1999 __ TK since 2009 __ Empire since 2010

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