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I usually play my brother (im a WoC player) in 1000 pt games, and I bring 2 sorcerers 2 blocks of nurgle knights and MHorseman, its an 8 PD list, but I play him regularly and table him every time, is my list cheesy, or does his list suck, thank.
- Van Horstmanns
- Ring of Volans
10x Halberdiers/ 10x Free Company (detachments)
2 blocks of 10x Handgunners
Also, when you say "blocks" of nurgle knights i guess that you mean 5x chaos knights with mark of nurgle?
Your list isnt cheese. An all cavalry WoC army is not fluffy at all though, and what you're fielding seems to be tough nonetheless. If you're playing for the fun of it, I suggest you take some standard Chaos Warriors or something instead of all the cavalry just to nerf your own army and give your brother a more fun game.
That being said, your brother might not fully understand the strenghts of the Empire (especially against Chaos). Empire troops are not as hardhitting as chaos, which is why you never should try to mirrormatch them (throwing 5 empire knights against 5 chaos knights is never a good idea), but they are ALOT cheaper, meaning you could field more than double as many. Empire win its melee by CR and shooting - but against fast moving knights your brothers handgunners wont have enough time to deal any important kind of damage. Therefore i suggest that he removes 1 unit of handgunners, 1 unit of knights and replaces them with a large block of infantry, say swordsmen or halberdiers (with detachments ofcause) and another artillerypiece (helblaster would do wonders against the heavy armoured knights).
Also, he might consider reequipping his characters. Mount the WP, giving him a +2 armour save. Skip on the VHS since you only have casters with you. Take Sword of Sigismund, Holy Relic or Doomfire Ring instead. The Wizard seems okay, though i personally would have equipped him with an Icon of Magus instead of the Ring of Volans (to avoid the fear-effect of charging knights).
With these changes your brother will be able to castle up in one corner and shoot you for a few turns before melee starts. A melee in which he will have a great static CR.
Thanks, you're right about the 5x MoN Knights, and I think the reason he has the VHS is I flip this list with my juggernaut thrasher list, and he claims that any more shooting would be cheesy, I think his major problem is that I would just avoid his big block like the plague, and once everything else is dead, i can usually hit his block with 8-12 knights with a flank charge. But thanks for the advice, I just hate chaos warriors with a passion, and my knights are all i've got, but any changes to units? Like maybe spearmen instead of swordsmen?
Hmmm... as someone who plays both armies, I will say that your Cavalry list is probably quite nasty. I know that mine eats Empire armies for dinner.
The problem that your brother is having, is that he mistakes 'competitive' for 'cheese'.
Empire armies don't get cheesy until they include at least a SteamTank and either another Stank, or a Waraltar. Lots of gunnery can seem unfair, sure, but he has hardly any shooting at all.
I play an All-Cav WoC army, and I didn't even last 3 turns against my shop's manager. He had lots of magic, backed with lots of shooting. Against Chaos, Empire are really very outmatched. He may need to add in shooting just to keep himself afloat against you. Against an enemy such as Elves or even infantry-based Warriors, yes, too much shooting would be very cheesy.
You guys are remembering to play to a 6-turn limit right? Warriors will usually always wipe the table with empire, the trick is for the empire to play Denial for 6 turns, and dish out more damage than they take. It's not that hard to do when you're fighting Cav WoC, since they cost about 5 times as much as an Imperial model.
Looking at your brother's collection, I would tell him to do this:
Attach one of the handgunner regiments to his Swordsmen
Keep the Wizard at lvl1 with a pair of scrolls
Get the priest on a horse
Bulk up the halberdier unit (best choice against chaos) and attach the second Handgunner unit to them
Drop the Cannon for a Helblaster
Swap the special knights for a regiment of Pistoliers, or drop the Pistoliers for Outriders with R.handguns.
That goes from easiest to hardest changes in the list price wise. When he has updated the army, he should be deploying in a corner, rather than in the middle of the field.
Right now, until he can update the list, he should be deploying in a corner, but keeping his knights and Pistoliers far away from his main body. He'll have to get a feel for the distance, but it will essentially force you to either go for his cavalry, while he shoots your flanks with the cannon, or go for his main-force, and be flanked by the fast moving cavalry.
I play against a very similar list with my empire. PLAY DEFENSIVE. I cannot say it enough. Have your Handgunners/Cannon parked up on a hill. Position your main block of state troops in front of it with your knights acting as a detachment, and obviously your real detachments there as well. THen just shoot magic and bullets at him to whittle down the knights. Have pistoliers dance around the enemy units to cause a few wounds hopefully. Focus a unit of knights, if you can have it break, then youre in really good shape. When they charge, have countercharges supporting the main unit. This is what works for me. And remember the D6 str4 prayer is your friend! If you manage for it not to be dispelled, that could possibly be 6 str 4 hits, 3 wounding on average, with no armor save means 3 dead, BEFORE ATTACKS. And if he does dispell it, it helps one of your wizards spells get through, hopefully for rerolls which are oh so useful in combat (i usually use heavens).