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Sorry for all the questions I post lol... I am new & wont be learning to play until I can get a copy of the 8th edition rules....
I had my army list up in the other forum & got some feedback that I should include outriders/pistoliers. Ive been able to find a lot of information on pistoliers but I have some questions on outriders. At first I didnt think they would fit into a Tilean themed army, but I found some conquistador style heads online & think they would fit perfectly in a "mercenary/expeditionary" army.
My thoughts are that with the new rules on fast cav I could get close enough to the enemy to unload a massive ammount of fire power while screening my infantry then fall back to protect my war machines.
Would it be worth it to give them barding & have a musician instead? What command should I bring? Has anyone used the hochland long rifle or the grenade launcher yet? How do they perform in terms of gameplay? I was thinking having two units of 6 or 7, that would be at least a turn or two of 42 armour piercing shots before falling back & then guarding my cannons & mortars. Would this work at 2000-3000 pt games?
It works i use a similar tactic and it is always worth it to take the long rifle it really shines on the outrider champ because of his BS5.
The blanket statement from that other guy that "you need pistoliers and outriders" bothers me. I realize that he probably read your list before giving that advice, but I don't have to be psychic to guess that he, and many others, would automatically make that comment about ANY list that didn't have pistoliers or outriders.
Pistoliers are some of the best light cav in the game, and both they and outriders can be game-winning units in the hands of the right general, but it's absolutely bass-ackwards to tick down a list of "take these units to pwn your opponent with your mad skillz FTW!!!" first and then decide how to employ them afterwards. Instead, start with a theme for your army, fill most of your points in accordance with the theme (mine's "big blocks of state troops led by warrior priests"), then think about what sort of enemies you might face and what capabilities (not units) you lack to counter those threats, and choose an appropriate unit to provide that capability. You'll quite frequently find yourself adding pistoliers for marchblocking, cannons for monstrous creatures, etc...but start by identifying the need for a marchblocking unit (maybe you don't need that because you're the one advancing towards him?), don't start by taking pistoliers (or any other unit) "because everyone knows you need those" and then fumble around trying to find a role for them to play in your army.
/edit/ As for specific advice about outriders, the thought of moving them forward, shooting, then moving them backward to guard the artillery park is...well, it wastes a lot of potential shooting. Any time they're moving, they aren't shooting, and it sounds like you're talking about one turn of advancing (from the front edge of your deployment zone), a turn ot two of shooting (most likely one, since they have to rush home and babysit), then two turns of movement to reach the back of the deployment zone (where you've likely put the artillery so it's as far from enemy warmachine hunters as possible). At this point, you're looking at turn four, and you've accomplished one turn of shooting. Not good. I'd like to suggest an alternative. Choose one mission and one mission only for move-or-shoot troops. It's pretty much a given that the enemy would like to kill your artillery, so you're quite safe to sit next to the cannons and let the warmachine hunters come in range of the outriders. On the other hand, if you do spend that one turn advancing your outriders to a hilltop in no man's land, especially one on a flank where few enemy units, if any, have them in their front quadrant, they can fire into the flanks of advancing enemy units without fear of being charged (since the enemy can't see to the flanks). That way, you maximize their shooting and still have the ability to successfully flee a charge (which handgunners wouldn't...) without running off the board.
Since guarding the cannons is pretty much a die-in-place mission (there's no point in fleeing, you're there to guard something fairly static), you're probably better off using handgunners than outriders. The mobility of the outriders is pretty useless when they're pinned against a soft target that they can't afford not to defend. Use outriders to shoot into the flanks of an advancing foe, and handgunners to defend fixed targets like artillery. Point for point, you get about the same number of shots, but the handgunners have more wounds while the outriders have superior mobility. When you can't use the mobility, you might as well opt for the extra wounds!
Last edited by Marnepup; June 7th, 2010 at 23:03.
IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
Brets 1997-1999 __ TK since 2009 __ Empire since 2010
Outriders are a neat concept, but you need to consider a few things with them. They are a mobile firebase. the weakness of the handgun, is losing a run of shooting on first turn if yourn opponent lets you go first. when you have outriders, your opponent might think twice about this. You will use that to setup your fire base and force certain units to deal with them.
One thing they have going for them, is that they cannot be ignored. They are deadly at short range, considering their BS of 4. they will shine against units without mobile missile units, and will lose firefights against no other fast cavalry. If you can slide them next to an enemy unit, your opponent will either have to :
- deal with them with a missile unit of is own.
- turn to face them to force you to move.
- ignore them, continue forward while march blocked and become a lead farmer, because he's going to have alot of it to collect on his corpses.
You see, sometimes the fact that they don't shoot doesn't mean they aren't effective. the goal of fast cavalry is not to kill scores of enemies, but to disrupt. If you want to use them as handgunners, you are doing it wrong. If you want to use them as fast cavalry that will obliterate units if ignored, then you are getting the tactical advantage.
The problem is keeping them alive. Just like pistoliers, we have very little like them in the fast arrassing units department. So if you are aggressive with them, you might end up losing them, since there will be no other advancing threat. if your opponent goes after them with his fast cavalry unit, just take the first volley. Even the second best fast cavalry out there (in the shooting department that is) will get obliterated by them. Dark riders will shoot you on 6s first round, resulting in maybe a kill. You fire back with 4 survivors (that's 9 shots on 5s and 3 shots on 4s) that's about 3-4 dead emo elves.
Units of 5 for both are where it's at. If your opponent is going to take them down, he will probably succeed, thus you want to minimise the points appeal they have. the cheaper the better. I will agree that a unit champion is well worth it with pistoliers (pistol upgrade!). With the outriders, it becomes a preference choice, as he does not get more shots than his peers, just slightly more accurate.