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Just a mild musing. I'm wanting to create a pre-empire army of sigmar. The thing I want to know is, is it worth taking knights armed with great weapons (aka Knights of the White Wolf) now that Great Weapons are now +2 Strength all the time?
IMHO, no real point in lancers anymore, esp not for the core choice knights. For some reason only known to GW, Swordsmen are about the only Empire unit whose initiative is bigger than 3, so even IC knights will always strike last against most enemies (no more chargers striking first, unless their initiative is also higher or they have ASF) What that leaves us with is a choice between a godly 1+ armor save and a pretty damn good (best for most non-empire knights) 2+ save AND a consistent +2 strength. Considering core knights are a puny 3 str, going up against anything remotely tough/armored we're talking HUGE difference.. not to mention the new attack in 2 rows rule which further magnifies the dmg in rounds after the 1st.. I think the choice is fairly easy to make.
Last edited by EbonKnight; July 16th, 2010 at 22:04.
i agree w/ ebonknight. im using 10+ knights with great weapons every game now, with the 10pt banner that gives them flaming attacks. at 2500+ im using a grand master to support them equiped with sword of power, crown of command, and dawnstone, the gm will have st 6 flaming magical attacks and a rerollable 1+ armour save, and the unit will be immune to psychology and stubborn. Its fast and really not any more expensive than say a unit of black guard with a dreadlord. At 3000pts I will also include a warrior priestess of myrmidia (storywise my army is from tilea) with eiather the speculum to handle challenges i dont want my gm to fight or the dawn armour. Knights are still really good despite 8ths focus on infantry and if built right can be absolutely devestating without taking up a majority of your points. On a side note I find its usually not worth it to upgrade your knights to ic, or to take a preceptor.
Hey, no worries, that's what this place is for.. asking questions and, hopefully getting answers
Essentially, in the previous edition Great Weapons only gave +1 str on a horse AND if you charged you always struck first ANYWAY so it was a choice between +1 str and -1 armor save or +2 str and no armor save modifier. Because of the way combats worked before, a single devastating charge could be more useful in instantly scattering a mob than a prolonged skirmish in which you would (with a great weapon) in subsequent rounds constantly take hits BEFORE being able to hit.
Well, now things are a little different see, and for 2 reasons that I've already mentioned before. One - chargers now still only strike in initiative order and as it happens even the most elite Empire Knights still have the measly 3 human initiative that is outclassed by, for example, all elves, daemons, chaos warriors, elite bret knights etc, matched with a few other armies and better than only a few. What this means is, now a charge effectively does not equal instant advantage and we mostly have to prepare ourselves for getting hit before we get a hit in (even with armies of the same initiative, we roll who hits first so 50/50 chance of getting hit before we get a hit in).
With that in mind, yes, it does pain us to lower our defense by one, but a 2+ armor save is still pretty formidable.. a strength 5 attack makes it only 4+ which is still about 50% (eg. damn good). What this gives us however is a consistent +2 strength which, with the new rules that allow cavalry to strike from 2 ranks gives our enemies FAR more pain in rounds after the 1st, because our strength doesn't lose the +2 it would have if our knights had the lances. This is very important now as it is MUCH harder to break mobs, and frankly, I don't see even death-star type cavalry rushes being able to seriously upset a 9 leadership re-rollable horde of dudes that can wound those same knights on a 6 everytime ANYWAY.
So, phew.. wanted to avoid a long post but oh well.. hopefully that clears it up dude.. the +1 str GW's have gained in the new edition, striking by initiative instead of automatically first on a charge, all this combined with the striking from 2 ranks and longer-lasting melees, IMHO, give 2 handers an edge for us. And frankly, Ulric knights are just badass
Well, no.. I suppose using a T3 unit to talk about the new rule wasn't particularly smart of me.. my point being that, with the new ANYTHING wounds ANYTHING on a 6 rule, hordes of just about -any- unit type will be able to beat small elite bands.. figure that's also the reasoning behind the T10 for the steam tank.. it' still gonna get ugly for us against a huge unit of dudes that all auto-hit. I suppose for knights and their T3/no getting auto-hit -that- particular change isn't so important, after all
thanks for the breakdown. you can be assured that when knights do finally go into my army, they willbe wielding some badass great weapons (min 10 knights, do you think its worth it to make them inner circle?)
Nope. It's not worth it. We're still at I3 as Inner Circle. The +1S is nice for turning the regiment into a Can-Opener, but with our low initiative, we don't want to be striking AFTER the big gribbly-beasts. Therefore, leave the bug nasties to the cannons and the powder-monkey handgunners. Save the 3pts and the Special choices for your Cannons and Mortars. Besides- 10knights Inner Circle costs almost 300pts naked, so why not put that towards your minimum of 25% core?
It is worth it to take the points you would've spent on Inner Circle, and give them a Warrior Priest in their ranks somewhere though... Hatred is a clever way to turn these guys into mosters.