Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
What do you guys think of Templar Grand Masters? I'm starting to think they're awesome. I hadn't considered fielding one because I don't field the prerequisite knights, but I'm going to change that, so I'm giving them a look. WS7 and I6 in particular look amazing. Add on the sword of Sigismund, and you're virtually guaranteed four S5 hits before your opponent gets to strike back. That's ridiculously awesome for a mere human, and with the holy relic, he gets a 1+/4++ save, to boot. Put him at the head of a dozen kotic with the steel standard, and you have a disrupting regiment of knights with the charge range of a flier! That's my idea of a hammer. I first came upon this while planning a list around Kurt Helborg, and then thought about an alternative for when named characters are not allowed... Kurt is definitely better for the points (expect him to put 6 CR on the stack by himself, so if his knights get their flank charge off, it's curtains! Only downside is that, for 25 points less than Karl Franz Himself, he has no ward save..?..), but the TGM with sword of sigismund and holy relic is pretty mean, too, I think...
No doubt they are nice, and I definitely love Kurt. He's too much points for me in a smaller game, which is a problem because that's where knight armies excel. I've done many a list with TGMs in them, and as I've become a bit of a better player they've worked out a bit better, but they do limit your army choices a bit.
On the plus side, they are absolutely the best fighters, and they come with pretty good protection. As far as survival, they don't come any better, and a tooled up TGM can be even more survivable than Kurt, like you said with the 1+/4+. Both make the unit Immune to Psych, which is nice for shooting defence or that stupid template spell that hits your general's knights, and Kurt adds Stubborn which is huge. And yes, they can be combat/ combat res beasts.
On the downside, they are not Arch Lectors. Sorry to use the Empire crutch...I know that adding DD is a crutch, but then there's also the temptation to try to get the 18" Ld bubble with the Altar or a Griffon General. Plus if you're flank charging, your general won't be anywhere near the centre of your army, a significant weakness. Also, the fact that Immune to Psych denies you the ability to flee is huge, because your knights can often get quickly outmatched by big charges. Of course, you could always play them smarter . My point is, I enjoy using the TGMs, and I think they have a place, but they don't lend themselves well to being played by newer players. That's probably why you don't see them much.
Last edited by Jackmoddle; February 15th, 2012 at 07:17.
Honey badger don't care.
OK, I know I'm writing way too much but I wanted to explain how I normally play mounted generals, whether they be ALs on horseback or TGMs. In a regular 2500 point game I would take two main units of knights, between 8 and 12 strong. Having ranks of 5 is not really that important, which means if you want a bunker you can also put a mounted wizard in the 2nd rank, surrounded by knights. A bit pricey but has worked well for me in the past. Especially if he has the VHS. Anyway, so in one of the knight units is the general and one has the BSB. That way each half of your army, should they be split up, has some help on Ld tests. On top of those units I take one or two medium-sized infantry blocks (detachments optional), a unit of pistoliers (always, and solely for redirecting/ causing failed charges) and sometimes a 3rd unit of 6 or 8 knights. Then I take a few artillery pieces and a tank/flaggies/more of anything.
Basically, the way the army works is to deploy centrally and then use your mobility to get the tactical advantage on your opponent. While the pistoliers and some knights handle chaff and your infantry acts as a target (aka the only thing you'll let them charge), you pick out the weak points of the other army and take them out one at a time. If your opponent has a deathstar, you leave it on the far side of the board and take out little units one by one. Then, after the big unit is blasted by artillery a bit, you charge in with everything, ensuring that you get flank/rear charges. It takes time to learn that just because you can charge in with your knights and fighty lord doesn't mean you should. It may seem very wood elf-ish, but this is how real cavalry operates. They don't get into huge melees because they die. They wheel and charge small units and then move away and charge again, always maintaining tactical advantage.
Honey badger don't care.
Can I have your Empire book Marne? Mine are only WS6
I'd grab one almost instantly if they didn't have to be mounted. A foot Knight would be more than awesome and giving an Infantry unit Immunity to Psychology would be fantabulous!! As he is, he's still cool, but I can't see myself buying/fielding one. The Kurt Helborg model rocks something Chronic but to take him you need the Plastic Knights........ and they don't rock anyones socks.
As Jack said, they fight with Arch Lectors and Wizards for a Lord slot and in smaller games that's not something people are free to give up for a 'fighty' Lord. In bigger games (like 3k+) I can see people taking them as they have points to burn and it's nice to have an awesome combat character leading your army. I'll take the General though for his ability to give a unit a magic std. That's much more useful than Immune to Psych.
Interesting... I do go for the AL in 2500 and down, I was considering three lords at 3k. The L4, of course, a ~150 point general for the LD bubble and a flame banner for the flaming crossbows that you suggested, and then a TGM to lead a kotic hammer. On top of that, a bsb, a L2 alchemist for dealing with high armor saves (and the unkillable DE lord!), and a WP to unlock core flaggies. Character-heavy, I know, but I really don't see real estate scaling up with points level, and my side of the board is congested enough at 2250.
IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
Brets 1997-1999 __ TK since 2009 __ Empire since 2010