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I'm getting into Fantasy after the Holidays, and considering my options for a first army. One concept that hit me is making an Empire army based on something from history that I'm a fan of.
The concept is centered on making a Fantasy recreation of the Teutonic Order, a crusading holy order from the middle ages. The Order was formed and based in Germany, and did most of its fighting in Eastern Europe. It wasn't a feudal army in the sense that it's equipment and holdings were communally owned, so a member would fight in a uniform with whatever equipment was issued to him. Since captured members could expect to be literally roasted on a spit by their enemies (no, this is not made up), they were used to fighting to the death, and their members typically spent alot of time training.
I figure the core of the army would consist of swordsmen and knights. The swordsmen would probably have halberdiers as detachments (when pikes became more common it was popular to hide halberds or greatswords behind the ranks to dash out and hack the pikes in half...and people sometimes). The knights would all be normal knightly orders, no heretical White Wolf soldiers thank you very much. Bows and crossbows are fine and were used by the Order, but gunpowder and artillery are right out. Greatswords would probably pop in there because I think they are very cool, and flagellants are pretty appropriate too. Dogs of War units are also okay, since the Order often used mercenaries to bolster its ranks, although I'd probably keep them within the ranks of pikemen, Kislev, and maybe a few odd balls like Ogres (the Order sometimes used mercenaries like swiss pikemen and even mongol warriors).
For characters, I'd probably use Elector Counts (renamed something appropriate) and Grand Masters for bigger fights. Captains and warrior priests are both perfect, and I could use the occasional wizard dressed up like a priest of some form (the Order had significant numbers of clergy working with them to administer their holdings). Of course, such 'priests' would only use appropriate magic like light or heavens, no shadow or death or anything like that.
I have three big concerns with this army idea. The first is I wouldn't want to use the standard Empire footsoldiers, I'd probably want to use Bretonnian Men-at-arms to represent the models, since they're attired more like the period I'm shooting for. Is that legal? I don't know much about swapping miniatures and such since I'm very new to the game. The second concern is that I've read somewhere that using swordsmen as your standard infantry is somehow against the spirit of the army. Is this true? It doesn't make much sense to me, so I wanted to ask. The final concern is that this army will use no gunpowder whatsoever. This is a voluntary shortcoming, and I'll be relying on infantry and cavalry to see the day through, and maybe a few crossbows. Do you think this would work? The Empire has alot of big guns that help them out.
If I went through with this army, I'd make up a new name for the religious order, and of course they'd all be worshipping Sigmar, but the general theme would be the same. What do you think?
sounds good overall, themed armies are always fun to play with, more so if you feel any ties to the army your building it on. first off i might sujest the middenland army list. it can be downloaded from the games workshop offical site. the army is overall less gunpowder oriented so you won't be so handicapped by giving up black powder. also you have access to another great sword like unit to represent your theme of extra training, and it's also stubborn letting it last longer in combat, again fitting in with the fight to the death theme. also archers can have any number of huntsmen upgrades, if your crusading army is big on scouts and infiltration this might also fit in. and if it dosnt just don't use that rule. to that concept of swordsmen being aggainst the spirit of the army is odd, i don't think so. where did you hear it? to using other models in your army, as far as i know keeping it in the same race is the basic guideline. men-at-arms have no problem fitting into an Empire army. equipment might be a problem, since as far as i know they only come with helberds and sheilds. if they're halberdiers they won't want the shields, if they're swordsmen they won't want the halbreds. other then that no probs. as to using something as something else, don't worry about Middenland knights of the white wolf, you can call them whatever you like. you'll have to be clear to your oppenent that they're white wolves called something else though. keep up the posts on whatever you decide, or if you can't find where to download the middenland list
that's the thing about perfection, it can only get worse.
I looked at the sprue for the men at arms online, and there are hand weapons you can use in them, enough for the entire squad it looks like. Halberdiers might be a little tougher since the left arm seems to be attached to the shield, but I'm sure I can think of something. Greatswords look pretty good as they are, I would probably use their models. The knights with lances for the Empire are absolutely perfect, though.
Is this Middenheim army one of the Storm of Chaos armies I can download?
yea, it's the Empire's storm of chaos list. and something else, you can get to units of greatswords. just one will have to be the tutogen gaurd, again, that's fine, just remember to specifiy to whoever your playing aggainst that one unit is tutogen(i'd sujest a very obvious banner). and for the men at arms, if you have a good enough knife, you could just slice off most of the shield and call the last half inch or so of shield as decorations or a really big arm plate. was your crusading army very decrotive? if they where the shield could be a good thing and you can paint it to appear like some kinda relic, or maybe a flat page from some bible
that's the thing about perfection, it can only get worse.
I'd say your theme, Cult of Ulric rules
Better Warrior Priests, no gunpowder whatsoever. Cheap normal rank and file (Warriors of Ulric), stubborn skirmishers.
Inner Circle Teutogen Guard (basically Greatswords which strike in I order for 1 more point) and so on...
Use Light, Beasts, Metal instead of Heavens
NecroLords: Use at least one Death Mage
Brets: Use Peasants&Damsels
Skaven: Don't use Skryre SAD
Maybe a bit late, but I hope it still helpes.
The 'Ritter Bruder' were full brothers, all of noble birth, armed with the latest armor and very disciplined. They were the only ones to wear the black cross on white. But there weren't a lot of them (around 500).
To bolster their ranks there were 'Halb Bruder', nobles who'd only taken a part of the order vows and no monastic vows. They were armed as they could pay it themselves, they weren't as disciplined as the Ritter Bruder and they divided their coat of arms in four quarters. Two with the black cross on white and two with their own). There were far more of them.
The 'Knechte' were a kind of squires. They were lighter armed and small in number. I think they wore the black T on light grey.
As infantry there were 'Dienende Bruder'. They had taken all vows, but weren't of noble birth. They were armed on the order's expense. Around a third of them served as heavy armed spearmen. And around two thirds as crossbowmen. The rest served as sergeants and officers for the subject infantry. They were all disciplined and wore a black T on light grey. They numbered more than the cavalry, but not much.
Thirdly there was subject infantry. Prussians, Lithuanians and other native people in the lands conquered by the Teutonic Order. They were poor armed and weren't eager to fight. As expected they hadn't any kind of uniform or uniform armament. They were called up when needed, in the numbers needed (if possible). They were just filler to swell the mostly outnumbered army up.
I suggest the Ritter Bruder to be Inner Circle Knights, possible as White Wolves.
The Halb Bruder as normal Order Knight (actually Bretonnian Knights of the Realm, but that isn't possible).
The Knechte as pistoliers. In fact they were armed with spears and swords, but that isn't possible either.
The Dienende Bruder as spearmen and handgunners. Handgunners, not crossbowmen since they are militia, not regimental.
And finally the subject foot as free company (with handweapons).
The moment you begin describing unique non-uniform Knights that fight to the death, using no gunpowder whatsoever and are considering using Bret Men-at-Arms because their uniform/costuming better matches the historical period... well, it sounds like you need to start a Brettonian army.
The Bret. knights are designed to all have unique armor/healdry. Brettonians use no gunpowder and the Men-at-Arms can be fielded in most if not all the weapon combos you wanted.
Of course, Brets don't have detachments, but the rest of the visual flavor seems to be what you're describing your "converted" Empire models to look like.
And as Araith continues to describe other units, all seem to match existing units in a Bret army: Primary Knights, Knights of the Realm (lesser knights), Mounted Squires with Spears/Bows, Archers, etc.
[COLOR=DarkRedI got my tournament t-shirts at mathhammer.net[/COLOR]
A problem though with the brets. Their infantry is inferior. The Teutonic order infantry was much more like the Imperial regimental infantry. Disciplined, well armed and they certainly didn't use handbows/longbows.
And the Ritter Bruder were certainly uniform.
And some I forgot. The Teutonic Order did hire horse archers from Russia, the Ukraine and Hungary. Though only later in their history and in small numbers. You could use the Kislev Ungol horse archers for that.