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do knight units want rank?

  • yes

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • no

    Votes: 8 53.3%
  • white wolves do

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • knightly orders do

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • pistoliers do

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • it's how you use them

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • no matter

    Votes: 1 6.7%
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Knight Size

2K views 19 replies 12 participants last post by  Skarsgard 
#1 ·
for awile i thought of knights as being single rank units with five or six models in them. they didn't want ranks 'cause to add ranks was to much of a point sink. it also discouraged things like bolt throwers or cannons from shooting at them since they're likly only hitting one or two models. being a small unit meant they couldn't take many casualties but they're not supposed to be used as a meat grinder unit anyways. but now i've heard twice that kinghts should be in larger ranked units. neither times was it explianed why bigger was better(could someone help me out on that one?). so heres the pole, what works better, big or small, and feel welcome to post anything at all knight related
 
#2 ·
To start off, i don't play empire, so this is by my army (chaos) and viewing some empire players in action (play against Empire every 2nd week or so)

Knights are a great unit if they are small or large, but they've really got to get the charge off.

My opponents use 2 types of knight groups.

a. Hasslers. These guys are 1 rank of usually 5 knights (6 if they have the points left over). The ride around the board making my warriors and marauders constantly look over their shoulders. I have to send something out to take care of them since they are dangerous if they charge, especially if they charge me in the flank or rear. So having a group of 5 knights coming around the edge of the board worries me, that extra strength on the charge cleans up warriors and marauders and takes care of rank bonuses and adds 10 unit strength to the combat usually reducing any chance i have of outnumbering (as chaos i don't usually outnumber anyway, but hey, it happens) to nil. So having these guys roam around the table makes me take something out of my army to handle them or tie them up. Unfortunately low toughness means these will not necessarily be a staying force, but the good armor usually saves them. It takes a group of marauder horsemen out of my army for me to chase them around and not doing what i want them to.

b. Grinders. These guys will usually ride in groups of 8-10 (2 ranks of 4 or 5). These guys tend to come barrelling up the middle of the board distracting my heavy calvary (read Knights) or large groups of warriors (not marauders, they get slaughtered by them). They tend to get a charge about 1/2 the time since my knights can charge them too, but if they hit my warriors they sit and stay for extended periods of time if i don't break off the start. The 5 or 6 lance attacks (strength 5 or 6 i forget) hurts and usually gets rid of most of a rank. Once in combat their greater armor save, but lower strength, toughness and initiative come into play, but they still manage to survive for a while. The 2 ranks in this formation gives you a rank bonus + you are either 16 or 20 unit strength (8 or 10 x 2). These guys HAVE to get the charge into heavy cav (knights or bret knights) to get their strength bonus to start since they don't keep it after the first round. Brets will eat these guys alive with a lance formation charge and Chaos Knights stay at strength 5 for the entire fight so would a lot easier.

As a side note pistoliers as fast calvary don't benefit from ranks (it's in the fast cav rule section of the rule book) so there's not much point in giving them. The beset thing to do with pistoliers is run around units trying to stay out of the charge arc and shooting stuff up or tying up smaller weaker units.

Hope this helps.

*whisper* chaos rules :) */whisper*

ForgottenKnight
 
#3 ·
it all helps, thank you. kinda sumed up this entire topic faster then i thought it would, oh well. now i just gotta pick what type of knight works best as either role. orders sound better for hasslers, make use of thier lance S bonous, and with high save can weather a few more rounds if need be, though likly won't kill everything. also with thier better save can survive doing this multiple times. white wolf knights with not quite as good a save but a continuing S bonous work as grinders, they may die faster then vanila knights, but with the extra S hopfully will be able to take down whatever thier facing. and thanks for reminding me about fast cav rules, i'm still sketchy on my knowledge. so does all my logic on this work or do i still have some holes in there?
 
#5 ·
Unless you play an all cav Empire army, you definantly will be playing defensive with some big blocks of infantry and lots of shooting. This means you dont need big units of knights, you need support units. A unit of 25 Swordsmen should hold against most charges, especially if the General is near. And those Greatswords arent running from even Grail Knights, so you've got a strong center that will hold. After their charge, you need a couple units of 5-6 Knights/Pistoliers to flank the enemy, and that WILL break them.
 
#6 ·
you see that's what i always thought knights where good for. breaking units that are bogged down with masses of Empire footsloggers. whenever i saw a big unit of knights in Empire, i just thought they didn't know the army well enough and where trying to be brettonians. even the grinder unit i'm thinking of having i have no intention of just planting it in combat and letting it stay there for the whole game. if they don't do well the first turn or two i'm fleeing. and with an extra D6 i'm hoping i'll be able to get away clean. but then again if i do get run down, that's a lot of points gone. again making me want to use knights in smaller units...
 
#7 ·
I use knights mostly in big blocks for several reasons. Some of the reasons are already described in the Grinder part, but there is something I would want to add.

A) You can dictate the enemies movement and deployment with this single unit. Most players react to it and try to move their units to deal with this threat. You can then force redeployment by moving the knights to the other side to deal with the weaker units.

B) Big units of knights automatically suffer from the Curse of Arrow Attraction. Players almost always pour vast amounts of arrows, bullets, rocks and magic into this unit. There is little you can do about it, but the rest of your force is hardly touched. In my experience, almost 70% of the first two turns of offensive magic and shooting is targeted at this single unit.

C) Character Killing. Big units of knight accompagnied by a character should smash through any unit led by an enemy character. They should target the regular soldiers and the casualties they cause, plus the additional banner, warbanner, rank bonus and outnumbering (counts as two in fact) can break any unit easily. And for that sake, don't target stubborn units.
 
#8 ·
nice, those are three boons of big units i hadn't thought of. though it all comes back to "how much is enough?". yes you can dictate moves, but is it worth the point cost? i can't really vote on that one since i havn't actualy played a game, so anyone else wanting to cover that would be great. and being a fire magnet, wouldn't you want that to be a cheap unit? if your knights get shot up, thats great point wise for the opponent. if he kills 8 models of knights with artillary and what have you, then he'd have to otherwise spread his fire and kill a 25 odd foot sloggers. personly with my great cannon, i'd love a unit of tooled out black knights or sarus cold ones(i'll be mostly playing counts and lizards), then i can just poor fire into that one unit and my ranged will earn it's weight in victory points in the first few rounds. and character killing with a knight charge does seem like a good idea. it may be called cheap, but panicing a bodygaurd to run down the character is a nice last resort vs those oh so uber vampire lords, old bloods, and chaos lords. it also dosn't seem nearly so cheesy if the unit is just a delivery unit to get the super powerful character into combat. but for smaller characters, uhh... i'm back to my unussful point sink argument
 
#9 ·
I think it would work well to take tem 5 or 6 strong, and try to screen them with a detachment , and use the knights to flank enemies that attack the nearby paren unit.

If you are going to breake stuff by charging them with the knights alone, i would suggest a unit of 10 in a 5-5 (of course) arrangement. Expensive, yes, but what unit would not brake from that charge? ( Except stubborn and unbreakable units)
 
#10 ·
it's hard to screen knights though, nothing can keep up with thier movment, save pistoliers which have better things to do then screen. keeping them out of danger seems to rely mostly on where you put them. as long as your being carful to make sure they don't hit enemy lines three turns before the rest of your army does you might as well be carful not to leave them open to shooting. inless your using the giant unit, which is made to take casualties anyways. to bad Empire can't get hunting hounds like the SoC middenhiem list huh, oh well.
 
#11 ·
A block of knights (10-12) led by a Grandmaster (I prefer my general to get into the thick of things - unlike the hero-stated elector Count) can by a fast action hard hitter. Even if they start in the middle of your line, you can usually scoot them around to where they are needed. Its not that many points (compared to Chaos Knights) and they are interesting to use when the rest of your army is little more than blocks of infantry.
 
#12 ·
are you kidding i love my infintry blocks, and if you really put effort into using them in organized positions then they're even better. a lot of tactics can be used if your constantly lining up your battle line every turn to keep the enemy from really gaining a foot hold. but then agian i'm a fan of the no frills semi horde army
and i heard from my local games workshop guy that grademaster leading a unit of knights really kills his ogres. if ya can break through his line, theres a lot you can do. run over some gnoblars, take out thier catapult thingy, or charge another unit in the back. once that first breach is made, others start appearing fast
 
#14 ·
I think small units of knights do fine. Big units are way too much of a points sink. Here are my reasons for this.

1. Knights alone will NOT break most units.

2. That one rank bonus won't last because with 10 knights only 2 have to die to take away that advantage.

3. Too many points to be fleeing away at a critical point in the battle like the end.

The only time a unit of knights is gonna break an enemy off the charge is if there is a Templar Grand Master leading them. Even then, al you need is the templar and a few knights to give the look out sir and add some hitting power but the templar will give you your combat resolution. Nowadays the only time a unit of knights will break big infantry blocks is with lucky rolls or very very weak infantry like goblins or skaven slaves.
 
#15 ·
my main opponent is a vampire count, so wouldn't KotWW in a big unit with a GM do well? i as long as i don't let them pursue, they'll stay with the infantry line. as their fearless they'll take out a lot of the punch from anything in the undead army. i'm a bit worried about wights, but with proper use of detachments/'nilla knights/pistoliers i'm confident i can keep them outta that combat for at least the first half of the game. all the while with my knights slowly grinding through hordes of zombies and skeles. well that's the plan in theory anyways.

sidenote-just used the new spell check option(how long has this been around?) and did you know undead and pistoliers weren't in the dictionary? i'm shocked.
 
#17 ·
I think th main thing with knights now is the bolster a balanced list. In a balanced list mainly because of the amount of infantry one would have I think the best use of knights is the hammer to th anvil. The anvil is your infantry blocks the knights come in where maybe there isn't a combat detachment and with 6 str 5 attacks you can get enough wounds with all the rest of the bonuses to really stick int to your opponent with combat res.

Other issue is now with ranks of 5 wide you need 11+ knights to not lose rank the minute one of your knights dies. Add that in with 23pts a model a big unit is a tremendous point sink. That if it loses combat it is almost impossible to win, however it is such a point sink that people may be wary to get brave with the unit. A five man knight unit with a champion is about 130-150pts which is not much in the way of lost victory points.
 
#18 ·
I think the best way to use knights are with 5 or 6 and a warrior priest and war banner.

The hatred is designed to be used with the knights. Rerolling S6 attacks is brutal and you get to reroll your horses too. If you have some magic power in your army it shouldn't be hard to get an unbreakable off too which will make them ItP for the charge.

I love warrior priests.
 
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