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Thread: Good idea?

  1. #1
    Member Chuffles's Avatar
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    Good idea?

    I was looking at the dogs of war army book and the pikemen seem almost unbeatable against an all-cavalry bretonnian list, and it just so happens that I have a close friend that plays that exact army list, would these guys be as good as I think they would or am I wrong?


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    Senior Member Big_Canadian's Avatar
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    TAKE THEM.... lol usually Im against ooling for a game but if your playing bretts I allow you to tool a unit of pikeman to spank his ass lol. PLEASE do it
    What you are we once were. What we are you will become!!!

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    Member Chuffles's Avatar
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    Well it's not necassarily tooling because they work well against chariots, monsters, and cavalry...my friend plays an all-cavalry bret list, another happens to play a monster-heavy dark elf list, and yet another happens to play an all-chariot tomb kings list, so it actually helps me against a large number of foes

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    Senior Member Big_Canadian's Avatar
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    nono I know that they can be used for many other things... but when you build your army with the knowledge of how your other enemy's armies look and take units to counteract them its tooling.

    Anyways I dont wanna fight about this Ive done it too many times lol....just take the pikemen. A nice big block of 24
    What you are we once were. What we are you will become!!!

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    Senior Member Thyr's Avatar
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    They are a good defensive unit. An average WS, a 5+ armour save, they fight in 4 ranks and are at their best when they are charged. On the other side, their Ld is only 7, they cost a lot and they can't benefit from the help of a detachment. Yes they are quite good but only situational at best.

    For 25 Pikemen with full command you pay 305 points. For 320 points I have a Greatsword unit of 20 men with full command and a detachment of 10 Free Company. The Greatsword have a higher WS, strike at Str 6, wear a FPA and are stubborn with a Ld of 8... and the detachment can negate the ranks of a lance that charged them, and strike back with 20 attacks (1 Bretonnian Knight down on average rolls).

    So for the amount of points the Pikemen unit cost I greatly prefer to have a unit of Greatsword as I believe they will be a lot more versatile in my army, they can occupy many roles and they make a great center, and yes they can withstand a charge from a Bretonnian Lance. Just think about it, from the start, with a banner, you have a CR of 4 (for the ranks), it means that, since you remove the ranks of the lance, they need to kill 4 Greatswords to get even...

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    Member Chuffles's Avatar
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    Wow I never thought of it like that, they're 10 points a model, I didn't think that was that much but I guess I was wrong, I bow to your superior knowledge Thyr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr
    They are a good defensive unit. An average WS, a 5+ armour save, they fight in 4 ranks and are at their best when they are charged. On the other side, their Ld is only 7, they cost a lot and they can't benefit from the help of a detachment. Yes they are quite good but only situational at best.

    For 25 Pikemen with full command you pay 305 points. For 320 points I have a Greatsword unit of 20 men with full command and a detachment of 10 Free Company. The Greatsword have a higher WS, strike at Str 6, wear a FPA and are stubborn with a Ld of 8... and the detachment can negate the ranks of a lance that charged them, and strike back with 20 attacks (1 Bretonnian Knight down on average rolls).

    So for the amount of points the Pikemen unit cost I greatly prefer to have a unit of Greatsword as I believe they will be a lot more versatile in my army, they can occupy many roles and they make a great center, and yes they can withstand a charge from a Bretonnian Lance. Just think about it, from the start, with a banner, you have a CR of 4 (for the ranks), it means that, since you remove the ranks of the lance, they need to kill 4 Greatswords to get even...
    I'm nearly positive that Greatswords are strength 3, not 4, making them strength 5 with their greatswords.

    But I do agree with your assessment. The detatchment rule actually gives the Empire some defense against the lance formation. Make your detatchments halberders and hopefully you'll get some wounds off before they even get to attack (killing 1 or 2 knights is a big deal). You will have them on both flanks (which I believe is still only a +1 CR), outnumbered (+1 CR), more ranks than them (+3 CR). So they'll need to do 5 wounds just to break even with you.

    Pikemen are a decent choice, but on average, I think they'll still lose pretty badly to a large lance formation (say 12 knights).

    Let's say a unit of 25 pikemen (full command) in 4 ranks is charged by a 12 knight lance of Bretonnian KoTR (also full command). The Pikemen get to go first. Odds are that 5 pikemen will be in contact (including champion), so that will be 21 S4 attacks (hitting on 4's). That equals 10.5 hits, which equals (S4 to T3) 7 unsaved wounds, which equals (3+AS) 2.333 wounds, which equals (6+ward) 1.94 final wounds. So it looks like (on average), 2 knights are going to be killed by the pikement.

    So now the Knights get to fight. There were 12 of them, but 2 were killed, so that leaves 8 S6 attacks (WS4) and and 7 S3 attacks (WS3). For the knights, that's 5.3333 hits which becomes 4.444 wounds. For the horses, that's 3.5 hits which becomes 1.75 unsaved wounds which becomes 1.458 wounds. So the knights inflict a total of 5.9 (let's say 6) wounds, to the pikemen's 2. So, on average, the Pikemen are going to lose the combat by 4. At this point, they're now outnumbered, so it could actually be 5... not good.



    Now let's look and see what a unit of Empire state troops can do with thier detachment rule. Let's say we have a large block of spearmen complimented by a unit of 10 halberdiers.

    The Knights charge the parent unit. They're immediately countercharged by the Halberdiers in the flank. The Halberdiers have 5 S4 WS3 attacks which is going to translate into 0.46 wounds (ok, not inspiring, but let's continue). Now the Knights attack. 2 of the knights must attack the halberdiers and inflict (1.11 +.41) 1.53 wounds. The rest of the Knights attack the Spearmen and inflict (4.44 + 1.46) 5.89 (we'll say 6) wounds.

    The Spearmen get to now attack with (5 men in contact) 5 attacks, which translates into 0.208 (or no) wounds.

    So now let's look at the combat resolution. The Bretonnians inflicted 7.42 wounds (we'll say 7 because on average 7 is more likely than 8, or you could subtract off the fraction of a wound inflicted by the empire troops), but the Empire has 3 ranks, and has the Bretonnians on a flank, AND outnumbers them. So they lose by 2, which is definately easy to hold against (assuming a general is nearby). The good news is that now that the Bretonnians have charged, they are limited to puny S3 attacks, so you can now swing the combat in YOUR favor on subsequent rounds. You can also charge their exposed flanks with, say, YOUR cavalry, or maybe a steamtank (or how about a Dogs of War Giant!). The point is, once you hold up against a Bretonnian charge, there's a whole lot of nasty things you can do to them...



    Like I said in another thread, the Detatchment rule for the Empire is one of the most powerful rules in any army book. It really surprises me how often people ignore it.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Thyr's Avatar
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    Yes Rameusb5 you are right, the Greatswords are Str 3 so with their great weapons they are Str5. I was thinking of the Inner Circle Knights with their lance when I wrote this I just love those guys. You are also right about the CR resolution, I forgot about the +1 bonus for flanking with a detachment.

    The fact that you give another exemple showing how even a unit of Spearmen is able to stop the charge of a lance is quite good too. If you keep your general near you can roll with a higher Ld and if you keep a Battle Standard Bearer near too you can re-roll that Ld test if you failed it.

    I generally take a Swordsmen unit for their higher Ws and their better save in close combat. If you put in a 10 Free Company and 8 Handgunners that shoot at the charging unit then you get a flanking bonus, you nullify you ennemy rank bonus, you get the chance to kill 1 or 2 knights with the stand and shoot of your hangunners and your opponant needs to kill at least 5 men to get even. If you put a war banner in there too for a mere 25 points you put that number up to 6. If you use a Griffon Banner then you start up with CR 7 (+6 from the ranks, +1 for the flank).

    You can do a lot with 310 points in an empire list, more than taking some Dog of Wars that can only emulate something your core regiments will do better. The above unit of 25 Swordsmen with 10 Free Company and 8 Handgunners cost me 314 points. With a War banner they are 339 points, that's quite good for a unit that can do so much. The only Dog of Wars I use are the Duellist, skirmisher with pistols on foot, they are just great.

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    Member l192837465's Avatar
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    well, you're partially right. the maximum anyone is ever allowed is +3 for ranks. even if you have 112 ranks of swordsman, only 3 are going to count for combat res. but yeah, i played an all pike army. i must say they held thier meat together until my warriors hit. numbers kill pikeman. idk, maybe it was just that game, but i guess Chaos just kind of decimates in close combat. cheers!
    "how many autocannon shots at my deamon prince?"
    "11 guns... im consolidating my army because nothing else can hurt it."
    '' that seems excessive"
    "not when you think about the damage that damn monstrosity will enact upon my feeble weakling humans. FIRE THE REALLY BIG GUNS!"

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    Senior Member Thyr's Avatar
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    Griffon Banner double the rank bonus to a maximum of +6 That's why so many people hate it

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