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I've been a 40k player for a few years, and my friends and I thought it was time to try Fantasy, mainly because it seems a bit more cerebral than 40k.
Now, I'm an absolute culprit when it comes to choosing an army. I want to try them all. Unfortunately, I haven't the budget, and DEFINITELY haven't the time to do so. So my next alternative is to ask heaps of questions to try and pick something I'll be happy with first go (something I failed at when I started 40k).
Without further ado, allow me to begin the interrogation:
1. On average, in a balanced-ish list, roughly how many models would you expect to see in an empire army of 2000 points?
2. In said average list, how many artillery pieces might one reasonably expect to see? How many of what types?
3. In a similar vein, how many infantry, and ranged soldiers would one expect to see?
(I understand that these will be very vague answers depending on preferences, and that's fine. But if everyone included 50% of models being ranged, I might get an inkling that that's a solid way to play it)
4. GW loves to make mention of the detachments that Empire get, but in half the army lists I looked at, people didn't seem to use them. What's the deal? Are they useful? Invaluable? Total rubbish? What are some common detatchments and parent units that people use?
5. Steam Tanks. The models is awesome, I'd get one at one point. Are the rules such that opponents hate having to play against the darn thing? (I play friendlies only, and want to keep it fun for everyone)
6. Despite seemingly having the reputation of being an all-rounder army, does Empire have anything that you consider them to excel at, or be absolutely hopeless at?
7. Similarly, does Empire have any foes that they usually really struggle against, or just totally dominate?
8. Does Empire have any units that are total no-brainers to take because they're awesome value? Contrarily, do they have any units that you just don't take, outside of pure fluff reasons, because they're rubbish?
Enough questions from me for now, although I'm sure more will crop up. For the record, I HAVE been cruising around the forums and army-lists, and have SOME information, but it's much more convenient to simply ask those in the know rather than try to decipher the information myself from army lists...
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Last edited by SilentTempest; June 13th, 2007 at 14:27. Reason: Added Question 8
I'm fairly new to empire myself but I'll try to answer your questions.The basic troop is 6-8pts. If you were to fill up 1000pts of those troops you'd have about 150 of them. Empire are capable of having a lot of big blocks of troops though you can go the elite troop way too. My current army set up has about 90 troops and that is on the small side.1. On average, in a balanced-ish list, roughly how many models would you expect to see in an empire army of 2000 points?2-3 pieces. Most people field 1 or 2 cannons and a helstorm. The mortar and helblaster are also good. (Though the helblaster has become a specialty that you wouldn't always want to take)2. In said average list, how many artillery pieces might one reasonably expect to see? How many of what types?A lot, more than elves less than goblins. The missile troops of the empire are some of the best in the game b/c they're so cheap. Pt for pt they can outshoot elves.3. In a similar vein, how many infantry, and ranged soldiers would one expect to see?Fantasy is won in HtH not shooting, though it is used to gain a tactical advantage.(I understand that these will be very vague answers depending on preferences, and that's fine. But if everyone included 50% of models being ranged, I might get an inkling that that's a solid way to play it)Detachments can be used to make your army lis flexible. You can field a lot of units of 5 missile troops for instance. Alternatively they can make even simple soldiers deadly b/c of the flank countercharge. They make your soldiers a threat to even the toughest adversaries.4. GW loves to make mention of the detachments that Empire get, but in half the army lists I looked at, people didn't seem to use them. What's the deal? Are they useful? Invaluable? Total rubbish? What are some common detatchments and parent units that people use?It depends on the army. Some armies will destroy it easily and some won't have a chance. Rules wise it is balanced but I wouldn't bring it to a tournament b/c you'll win and lose more b/c of who you are playing against. It can be a lot of fun in friendly games b/c it is different but can also be frustrating if the opponent doesn't have anything that is high strength to deal with it.5. Steam Tanks. The models is awesome, I'd get one at one point. Are the rules such that opponents hate having to play against the darn thing? (I play friendlies only, and want to keep it fun for everyone)Empire magic is quite good b/c the mages are so cheap and there are some good items. Missile power is also good. The empire doesn't truely excel at any one thing though it has few weaknesses. A well played empire army can bring you victory against all opponents.
6. Despite seemingly having the reputation of being an all-rounder army, does Empire have anything that you consider them to excel at, or be absolutely hopeless at?I don't have enough experience with the empire to say, though I would think Dwarfs would give them trouble.
7. Similarly, does Empire have any foes that they usually really struggle against, or just totally dominate?I love the empire knights. You can't argue with a 1+ save and S4 if they're upgraded.8. Does Empire have any units that are total no-brainers to take because they're awesome value? Contrarily, do they have any units that you just don't take, outside of pure fluff reasons, because they're rubbish?
The warrior priest character is also incredibly good. Hatred for your unit means you reroll to hit. Put him in some knights and they become very good.
The outriders are pretty dumb I think. They look awesome but they're mounted and cannot move which defeats the purpose.
Well, about 80 to 90, though this can easily vary further up to +-20 models (since one could swap a Cannon for about 15 Swordsmen and suchlike)1. roughly how many models?About three, a cannon, a mortar and a hellfire/hellstorm (although many would swap the mortar for a second cannon)2. how many artillery pieces?one or two units each, with the infantry being fielded in usually larger blocks and with sizeable detachments.3. how many infantry, and ranged soldiers?Well, a crafty opponent will always try to prevent you from utilising your detachment rules (i.e. trying to charge the detachment instead of the main regiment or whittling the detachment down below US5 with ranged attacks)4. detachments. Are they useful? Invaluable? Total rubbish? What are some common detatchments and parent units that people use?
Yet whilst they may be far from invaluable they're still farther from rubbish any shooting/spellcasting/whatever aimed at a detachment won't be directed at other units, and always remember that detachments never cause panic, especially with the new rules (once two skaven units of 30+ models each panicked because a measly 6 night runners fled through them :w00t: ) so feel also free to use them as a meatshield whenever desiredI got none (and don't plan to get one either). The new rules seem to have reduced it's cheezyness but for not having it I got no experience5. Steam Tanks?And, well, Question 8 is somewhat similar, since the no-brainers would rather be the things they excel at, won't they? :blush:6. does Empire have anything that you consider them to excel at, or be absolutely hopeless at?
Well, the Master Engineer is somewhat useless, and halberdiers and spearmen lose somewhat to swordsmen due to their lower WS, but apart from that there are no real downsides.
Strong points of the Empire:
Fistly, a sturdy heavy cavalry (core choice with a 1+ save that almost no other army can come up with and that for a reasonable points cost), even if you want to field a no-cavalry army, taking 5 of those guys without any upgrades should always be considered.
Secondly, empire artillery can almost compete with dwarven artillery (of course, the latter can upgrade theirs with engineering runes, but that won't make them any cheaper :glare:Not really, it's more a question of army composition.7. does Empire have any foes that they usually really struggle against, or just totally dominate?
It ain't easy bein' green... :-)
Hey, I definately recommend empire to you as they are a flexible, tactically rewarding army which you can play many playstyles with. On to your questions...:
1. My standard 2000 point list, which i consider balanced, has 121 models. Other lists may be more infantry heavy then mine are though.
2. My list has 3, which is about the norm.
3. Said list has 57 melee infantry and 21 ranged infantry. Fantasy is not as shooty based as 40k is.
4. Detatchemenets are invaluable if used right and are a pain in the ass for many opponents. They can be countered but generally the effort the enemy puts into countering them makes it worth your time.
5. The new tanks is not near as hated/cheesy as the old but there is still a bad flavour in some players mouths. Expect mixed reactions.
6. Empire can excell at shooting if they choose, but they best are played as an all around army. Also, Empires not the best at anything but certainly not the worst at anything either.
7. IMO theres no armies empire is good or bad against.
8. Units to avoid are the halbeirders and master engineer. Besides that all units have a place in a competitive list. Units you see alot of are Swordsmen because they are generally recognized as the "best" combat unit for empire and cannons as they are a necassitty to give empire the power to down monsterous creatures.
Another thing I was wondering...
I can't quite pin down what the flavour of the empire is supposed to be. It doesn't seem quite like it's supposed to be akin to that of Imperial Guard in 40K (just a human with a spear pitted against preternaturally quick Elves, rock-hard dwarves, not to mention giant lizards, rats and ogres).
So what is it? Are they all respected professional soldiers, with their armies feared by their enemies?
What is the general playstyle of the Empire army? I know it will vary with opponent, and also with army composition, but is there a sort of standard method? ie shoot until they're close, then counter-charge. Or shoot until they charge, then counter-charge with detatchments. Or go out after the enemy army...
How does Empire leadership fare? Are they one of those armies like Gobbos that will run off the board if you look at them funny? I'm used to 40K where almost everything these days seems to have special leadership rules, so psychology doesn't play a huge part there. Does Empire have ways of making their troops stick around when they get charged?
The Empire is the main "good" race in the Warhammer world. They keep back the forces of chaos and otherwise hunt down and destroy much of the evil races. They are the backbone of the old world.
They may only be weak humans with swords and shields (spears aren't very good) but they employ keen military strategies (detachments) and of course all of that black powder.
Empire shooting and magic is quite good so often your opponent will have to come to you.
Empire leadership is average. The basic troop is 7, heros 8 and lords 9.
So an Empire general has to be careful about psychology. Fortunately its easy to have control over magic and shooting so that leaves fear and terror. Make sure you outnumber and take down those big monsters with your cannons.
Flagellants are your friends. They're unbreakable so they never break and are immune to psychology. Plus the idea of them is just awesome.
Just looking around, I've formed an idea about Empire. Perhaps you can tell me if I'm right or wrong:
Everyone seems to love Swordsmen. Because of their Weapon Skill, it's harder to hit them, and my understanding is that they have a better armour save than other infantry.
My question then is: Is there any reason to take Spearmen over Swordsmen?
I can see why one might take Halberdiers as a detachment, or maybe free company for the lots of attacks, but if you've got an infantry block that's there to recieve a charge, it seems to me that the main priority is surviving as well as they can, and it seems that that honour goes to swordsmen.
So, while I saw from that vote that Swordsmen are the favourites, is there any reason to take Spearmen at all? Why not just make all your charge-catching units Swordsmen?
Spearmen are definately better than free company. I think they're better than halberdiers as well since the halberdiers don't get enough attacks for their strength to be worthwhile.So, while I saw from that vote that Swordsmen are the favourites, is there any reason to take Spearmen at all? Why not just make all your charge-catching units Swordsmen?
Swordsmen vs Spearmen
Spearmen are better against WS2 opponents with low S and T.
However swordsmen are better against WS 3 and 4 opponents (which are the vast majority) and become almost twice as good against anything with higher strength and toughness.
Plus I think the fluff is the coolest of all the infantry.
I would never take anything other than swordsmen, big blocks of troops are there for CR. You can't rely on it if they all die.
I just looked at a 2000 point list of mine. It includes steam tank and has a total of 124 models. The steam tank is 300 points, so instead I could have put in up to 60 more models (theoretically if they were all basic 5 pt spearmen with no upgrades).
My list contains 66 foot soldiers, (swordsmen, greatswords, spearmen and free company).
It also has 40 missile troops on foot (30 handgunners and 10 archers)
It also has 9 mounted pistoliers.
The list had a great cannon and the aformentioned Steam Tank.
For heroes I used a mounted General of the Empire, a mounted Engineer (I know everyone says they're rubbish, but I like to try different units), a warrior priest on foot (I put him with my greatswords) and a battle standard bearer on foot to put with my big block of swordsmen).
I remember when I was building the list, I struggled to decide if I should bring the steam tank or mounted knights. I LOVE knights!! I love the models and I love the charge! For that same 300 points I could have 10 knights of the inner circle with full command or 10 regular knights with full command and a magic banner of up to 30 points...
As far as units to always use, I love flagellants. They are not in the above list because I did not own the models then, but I DO NOW! I also always use a warrior priest and put him with a strong melee unit (Greatswords is what I prefer) to lend them his Hatred. I think the main "MUST HAVE" item in an Empire army, though, is a great cannon...the only thing that can beat a great cannon would be TWO great cannons!!! They are THAT good!
I don't think there is any army that is particularly deadly against Empire, or especially simple to defeat with Empire. Empire is, however, a very well-rounded army that lets you specialize in whatever you really want. You could talk an army that is mostly knights, or mostly handguns, or all big blocks of troops that include no shooting whatsoever.
I hope this has helped a bit...
Once a Marine, always a Marine.