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hey guys, i'm a bret and gobbo player with a question about an empire opponent i played last saturday. we were playing a 750 pt game. he had like 20 flangalents (?) 5 fast cav pistol guys, a cannon and 5 knights of holy order (?)... just wondering if that list is even legal. i thought flangalents or whatever were special choices and i know his fast cav were as well.... sooo i'm guessing cannons are core choices for empire, along with his heavy cav? (slightly sacastic) Is this something empire can do. ..? he also had like 3 priests.. or something. This guy is a power gamer.. all his lists are always rediculous... but legal... i'm just wondering if he's finally gone over the edge here. those flangalents held up a 20 man night gobbo unit for the whole game starting on turn 2... my magic reduced them to 10 before they charged me... i'm thinking if it was 2 units of regular joes instead (making the list legal i think) they would have ran away when i blasted them with some magic.... none the less i lost...
Okay, in an Empire army, if any of the Heroes is a Warrior Priest, then a single unit of Flagellants may count as a Core choice rather than the Rare that they normally are (this is pretty easy to abuse in small games).
Knightly Orders are a Core choice, but Pistoleers and Cannons are Specials.
Flagellants are still (despite the changes) an effective tar-pit if you play them right, and with the new Martyr rules, they can be very dangerous.
So yes, it seems to have been a legal list, but I haven't checked the points out, so if there was a problem, that would have been it.
Mysterious Member of the ANZAC Clan
oh. Ok thanks man. Yeah i was looking at the GW online store and noticed flangellents were under the rare. Thats what got me thinking. It was sorta broke that he used them in a 750 point game, i think. They were definatly a large tar pit... thinking back i should have devoted my spells on the knights and cannon. thanks again
Yup MPD is 100% fully correct. They got a W.Priest (including Huss)? If yes then the first unit of the nuts with the flails are Core.
FYI to you molatic, sadly everything is broke at 750. You're probably just not gonna have much luck finding true balance in that range. Real balanced games don't start till 1500ish, 1250 on the outside. It's why most tournaments are at the 2-2.5k range. At the least at 750 you got to cut the board down to 4x4, and even then it's not the same as a 2.0-3.0 range game on a 4x6. Definetly play some bigger games and see edges like that quickly diminish in their overall effect. Also if you're stuck playing small just remember even stuff that's broke against you can be broken against it at 750, you just need to speak to the right folks here to learn how and what you can do.
Also FYI, around here calling someone whose lists are legal a power gamer is considered a bit heat attracting of a term, and it is heavily frowned upon as it invites flame wars. If you're definition of someone who makes a good list, totally legal, and plays it well and beats you is a power gamer you're setting yourself up to always have an excuse and learn nothing if you lose. The point of the game after all isn't to build a list to lose with, it's to build a list to have fun with, and winning is generally more fun the losing and you certainly can't expect other people to build lists to NOT win with just so you can have the fun winning. After all if winning doesn't matter to you, no list a foe plays should matter, and if winning DOES matter to you, it's logicially hypocritical to be upset they built a list to win with, they were only after the same goal as you!
Ow and you've also described me and every other tournament player around, the exact same guys whose opinions you want when trying to figure something out. Instead of calling them, a legal player, an insulting term just because they were better then you talk to us and we'll help YOU be better then THEM. That's what sites like this are for, so people can trade wisdom and tactics after all.
Now if you agreed before hand, with his OppCon, that the game would be only for fun and with silly lists, THEN he brought a to-kill-with list, that is cheap. Or if you're totaly newbies to WFB and he knows it and is using the opportunity to be cruel when he should be teaching that's differant too. However if you agree to play someone with no other stipulations, it isn't their fault if they play to win. What is the only other option, they play to lose? That seems even more silly to expect of someone!
*= note however if you double check his points or his rules and it ISN'T legal, then insulting is fine. If he cheats and breaks rules midgame, that's fine to rip on him too. There is no love for dirty cheaters arond these parts! However if someone is playing fair and legal, simplying making a better list and beating you with it, that is generally not cause to slap them with what is viewed be the majority of people as a negative and insulting term and is last I recall disallowed by the sites rules (don't tell a Mod, I haven't actually checked em in awhile, but I bet it's still up there). It is a great cause to have those of us here help you learn how to beat him next time either by changing up what you have or, suprisingly more often useful, simply changing up how you're using what you have and the games rules.
EDIT: I notice you mentioned you were OnG right? If you haven't already go to the Orc and Goblin WFB forum here... list what you had... what he had... points aren't neccisary just overall estimates... and what happened in the battle. We got some folks there who'll be happy to help you turn things around on him, hopefully with what you already own or with as minimal new purchases as possible.
Last edited by BFGMidwesternPrisoner; June 27th, 2007 at 09:32. Reason: Just a fun note... 300th post!
Making Sisters of Battle into Women of Battle
Give a Rep Star if you like what someone said. Especially Me. I'm an unabashed Star whore. Blame my 2nd grade teacher and those stupid good behavior stickers. I'm just conditioned. I'm the Pavlov's Dog of stars.
You win with VP, NOT with kills
His flagellants would've cost at least 3x what your night goblins cost (if not 4-5x depending on how you equipped them) and you're upset that they only held them up?
Sounds like you dealt with them properly.
His list doesn't sound ridiculous at all.
However he had a lot more than 750 pts.
That is at least 775 pts without any upgrades.
I would never play that list. All you have to do is crush the flagellants and the cannon. He has way too many points in characters. Flagellants aren't worthwhile until higher point games where they become expendable, not 1/4 of your army.
BFG, please understand that i was not trying to be offensive to anyone! I made a mistake in the game. Like i stated earlier i should have delt with his knights with magic instead of the flangallents... after all it was the knights that really hurt me. That said. I've had issues with this player for a while now, as does some other players at our location. So i stumble upon the empire on the online store and see that it's a rare choice... i was obviously a little mad in the first place and then finding out it's a rare choice, i had to ask you guys about it. Not knowing of this special rule, I wrote this thread pretty rough (in your eyes). Again i'm sorry.
FYI by stating that his lists are rediculous, i meant rediculously tough. (which as you stated is not a bad thing)
FYI I wasn't calling anyone on the forum...specifically you, BFG, a power gamer. It was directed toward this player...which was an obvious notion. If you were offended than i'm sorry... it must be something you've been called before and had been offended greatly by it.
A power gamer plays to win.....just like anybody else... the difference is their attitude, loop holes that are abused, and the like. But mostly it's attitude. Typically most (power gamers) play 40k... because it can easily be abused... anyway.
Also FYI we did decide it was going to be a friendly just for fun game... seeing how i'm new to the goblins, i thought he'd be more of a teacher than a 'destroyer'... I didn't expect to win... i just wanted to try them out.
Also FYI (i hate that phrase if you haven't noticed the burlesque repeating of it) I am a semi seasoned bret player as well... and i have been on the librarium for awhile now.