VW Round 4 Match 1: Arklite + Stonehambey vs Tossy + Demandred - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    King of Librarium's Tombs Phoenix's Avatar
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    579 (x8)

    Round 4 Match 1: Arklite + Stonehambey vs Tossy + Demandred

    Arklite + Stonehambey "Drokki Grungbad’s 20 bolt salute and Tooth and Claw" (1st turn)

    Dwarves
    Drokki Grungbad
    master engineer
    master rune of gromril
    brace of pistols
    105 points

    10 Quarrellers
    shields
    great weapons
    140 points

    10 Quarrellers
    shields
    great weapons
    140 points

    Big Brunhilda
    Grudge thrower
    Rune of accuracy
    115 points

    master rune of gromril: 1+ save
    Brace of pistols: 2 pistols
    rune of accuracy: re-roll the scatter dice (gives 5/9 chance of a direct hit)
    Master engineer: when attached to the grudge thrower provides re-rolls on the artillery dice.


    Lizardmen
    Saurus scar veteran
    Great weapon
    Shield
    Light armour
    Charm of the Jaguar warrior
    113 points

    15 Saurus warriors
    full command
    210 points

    5 Saurus cavalry

    Charm of the Jaguar warrior: provides the bearer with Movement 9

    Total points: 998
    Power Dice: 2
    Dispel Dice: 4


    VS


    Tossy + Demandred "Lord Hyppee Lefleur's Tree Hugging Knights"

    Bretonnia

    Paladin- 120 - General
    Knights Vow
    Barded Warhorse
    Lance and Shield
    Virtue of Knightly Temper

    5x Knights of the Realm- 128
    Musician + Free Champ

    6x Knights Errant- 127
    Musician + Free Champ

    16 Peasant Bowmen- 122
    Musician
    Brazier
    Skirmishers

    Wood Elves
    Branch Wraith - Lvl 1 wizard - 115
    -Lvl 1 Wizard. Spell: 1 Tree Singing
    -Travels with dryads

    12 x Glade Guard

    10 x Dryads

    10 x Dryads


    Power dice: 3
    Dispel dice: 3

    Last edited by Phoenix; November 18th, 2007 at 03:12.

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  3. #2
    Banned ArchonFarseerGuy's Avatar
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    458 (x8)

    I'd say this is the one list that can beat Arky and Stoney. The Knights will be able to close the gap before the Quarrellers and Brunhilda can do much. The GG and Peasants can return fire safely, and the Dryads and Knights will combine well to defeat the Saurus, and anyone thaat gets too close. So, tbh, I'm going with Tossy and Demandred.

    -AFG

  4. #3
    Member shrither's Avatar
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    3 (x1)

    wow, this is a tricky match to vote on......

    the dwarfs have alot of shooting, which when supported by the lizardmen makes for a deadly combination, but then again, the bretonians also have a good bit a shooting as do the woodelves which is supported by the nasty moveing tree's and there own knights...

    lets not forget the lvl 1 wizard (which will have trouble with the dwarves natural dispel dice)

    alot would come down to the terrain. how much cover there is, if there is tree's etc.

    i'm going to have to say Vote Witheld until i can deside.
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  5. #4
    Bearded Ninja Arklite's Avatar
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    451 (x8)

    bah! Could have had the good taste to let me talk about tactics first!

    Right.

    The Knights will be able to close the gap before the Quarrellers and Brunhilda can do much.
    This is probably the factor that will make or break the game and I’ll explain why its in favour of the dwarf lizzie alliance. for starters if the knights want to close the distance and deal with the missile fire they WILL outstrip the slower dryads. simple truth of the matter and as such will arrive unsupported. the dwarf lizzie alliance also has the huge advantage of going 1st. this means 2 solid rounds of shooting at those knights before they reach us. the knights of the realm are clearly the main target having a character in there so they will take the brunt of our missile fire.

    the quarrellers firing at long range average out to killing a single knight and at short we can pull down approximately 2 more. this cripples the offensive strength of the unit and means that the saurus knights or even just the jaguar saurus of doom should be able to charge the unit and break it. (S7 opens knights like a tin opener, even with a ward save). The knights errant are no where near as much a threat and could be dealt with by either the saurus warriors or the quarrellers using their great weapons at a stretch (the knights killing 3 quarrellers and the quarrellers responding and killing 2 knights, the dwarves will be at –2 at the end of the combat which isn’t too bad, if they hold the knights will drop like fly’s). Brunhilda is an incredibly hard prospect to engage due to being entrenched (hard cover and defended obstacle) and any chargers would have to deal with Drokki himself.

    once the knights are eliminated the dryads following up will be in a dire situation. on one hand they are skirmishers and they are less susceptible to the quarrellers fire. sadly, they are also skirmishers and lack the ability to negate ranks meaning the saurus warrior unit will be their biggest bane not to mention the saurus cavalry and the magic grudge thrower.

    the bretonian and elven archery won't be too much a concern due to being S3 and taking on an army with a T of 4 throughout not counting good armour saves only the glad guard could pose a risk and that’s assuming they spend the time to close the distance.

    Simply, if the knights try to close against the shooting they get shot at and counter attacked by the lizards, if they try to keep pace with their supporting dryads they will be shot to bits by the dwarves.


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    [16:19] <@Alzer> Arky's right though
    [16:20] <@Kaiser-> I know he is.
    [16:20] <@Kaiser-> He usually is.
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  6. #5
    Son of LO Phaeron Typhoon's Avatar
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    172 (x7)

    Simply, if the knights try to close against the shooting they get shot at and counter attacked by the lizards, if they try to keep pace with their supporting dryads they will be shot to bits by the dwarves.
    The first is a true statement, the second not so much. If I do choose to keep pace with the dryads it would definitely not be marching next to them out in the open to be peppered with quarrels and massive rocks dropping out of the air. It would be behind the dryads, taking advantage of them being skirmishers and also having a ward save.

    Doing this gives my knights a fair chance of reaching your lines in conjunction with the dryads, thus disrupting your plans of having the dryads fail alone against the block of Saurus.

    Even were the knights to be out in the open (not likely against the oponents list), at long range the quarrelers will do maybe 4 wounds, which still need to try to get through a 3+ armor save and a ward save. Against some of the stronger attacks, a 5+ ward is nothing to be dismissed lightly.

    (the knights killing 3 quarrelers and the quarrelers responding and killing 2 knights, the dwarves will be at –2 at the end of the combat which isn’t too bad, if they hold the knights will drop like fly’s)
    Also assuming I don't choose to double team units with both knight units (and my rank and file killing paladin), which is very likely given that the knights are FAR more maneuverable

    the bretonian and elven archery won't be too much a concern due to being S3 and taking on an army with a T of 4 throughout not counting good armour saves only the glad guard could pose a risk and that’s assuming they spend the time to close the distance.
    It's true that our ranged is only str 3, however we have a large volume of shots and the only really good armor I see against ranged in the opponents list is the Engineer and the Saurus Cavalry. You also can't discount that unlike the crossbows, our ranged is mobile.
    "I am the architect of fate!"

  7. #6
    Son of LO
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    523 (x8)

    well we have our tin opener, I've seen him chew through a unit of knights with ease, then again I've also seen him bounce off them...>.<

    However I've also seen saurus hold from a charge of knights many a time. There is only two units of them so that is not too bad, plus our CoR have the edge if we can get a charge off.

    We have more than one round of shooting and with our engineer and RoAccuracy I think it's not too far fetched to assume one catches the knights. Nasty when you consider no saves and only a 6+ ward due to s4 (although center gets s. So can we say that the knights will be far from full strength when they arrive? Combined with the JSoD I think we can disrupt them early.

    I like our saurus cav as well, I think they'll be able to chew through most things put in their way, and also adds another dimension to our attack

  8. #7
    Son of LO Phaeron Typhoon's Avatar
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    172 (x7)

    We have more than one round of shooting and with our engineer and RoAccuracy I think it's not too far fetched to assume one catches the knights. Nasty when you consider no saves and only a 6+ ward due to s4 (although center gets s. So can we say that the knights will be far from full strength when they arrive? Combined with the JSoD I think we can disrupt them early.
    assuming you have a hill in your deployment, then yes. If not then I'd try my utmost to keep the knights behind the skirmishing dryads so you couldn't draw LoS to them until I am ready to charge them into something.

    Also, with my battle plan, the knights wouldn't be trying to take on anything on their own, they would be combining charges on quarrelers to break them. Then joining the dryads with (hopefully) a flank charge on the block of saurus.
    "I am the architect of fate!"

  9. #8
    Bearded Ninja Arklite's Avatar
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    451 (x8)

    Also, with my battle plan, the knights wouldn't be trying to take on anything on their own, they would be combining charges on quarrelers to break them. Then joining the dryads with (hopefully) a flank charge on the block of saurus.
    so let me get this right.... your battle plan is to completely ignore the lizard men (who match you in many ways in speed and manoeuvrability and outclass you in combat) to attack a 140 point unit of quarrellers who will probably be placed on a table edge with 375 points worth of knights only to have them either A: run off the table and spend a turn before returning leaving the dryads are the mercy of the or B: hold and get counter charged by the sarus cavalry, probably in a flank.

    I’m sorry to say but I think this is a poor use of resources.

    Remember also that while the knight units can probably break and eliminate the quarrellers rather quickly its wishful thinking to assume that either unit will be intact when they do so. We do after all have an enchanted grudge thrower which is unnaturally accurate. Wounding on 3's and leaving you with a 6+ ward. Not to mention the pretty shape of the lance formation in regards to the blast template, even in a single line the knights are vulnerable to the grudge throwers attention, a single hit has a pretty good chance of killing up to half the unit after all.

    Then of course we have the saurus cavalry who sport 10 S5 and 5 S4 attacks on the charge, 15S4 attacks standing and are still as fast as the bretonian knights (and fear, don’t forget fear). We also have to remember the jaguar saurus of doom. he is even faster than the knights and more manoeuvrable depending if he is running solo or joining the saurus cavalry with his S7 attacks, sure he will allow 5+ wards against his attack, but there is also little to no armour save in response.

    if the knights keep pace with the dryads (meaning an average speed of 8" a turn) it pretty much doubles the amount of time required to reach the dwarf/lizard lines. the idea that you can remain behind cover until you are able to charge is pretty optimistic in my eyes, if this were a game of 40k I could understand it, but in fantasy it would only serve to make you take even longer reaching our lines.

    i generally feel you overestimate your ability to dictate the battle. We are just as fast if not faster than you in this battle seeing as our knights match yours in speed and we also sport the fastest model on the table. And with your battle plan seeming to waste resources (375 points dedicated to kill 140) i can only see victory for my own and stoney’s forces. Though it may not seem like it we in-fact dictate this battle, we don't need to reach you in order to win, while you quite clearly need to reach us, spending 4 turns trying to sneak up on us will only damage your own forces and give us more than enough time to position the lizards to intercept the knights.
    Last edited by Arklite; November 19th, 2007 at 15:24.


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    [16:19] <@Alzer> Arky's right though
    [16:20] <@Kaiser-> I know he is.
    [16:20] <@Kaiser-> He usually is.
    [16:20] <@Kaiser-> Sometimes it's intentional.
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  10. #9
    Son of LO Phaeron Typhoon's Avatar
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    172 (x7)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arklite View Post
    so let me get this right.... your battle plan is to completely ignore the lizard men (who match you in many ways in speed and manoeuvrability and outclass you in combat) to attack a 140 point unit of quarrellers who will probably be placed on a table edge with 375 points worth of knights only to have them either A: run off the table and spend a turn before returning leaving the dryads are the mercy of the or B: hold and get counter charged by the sarus cavalry, probably in a flank.

    I’m sorry to say but I think this is a poor use of resources.
    Of course my plan hinges on how you set up, but since there is no map available I am imagining a basic set up of the saurus in the middle flanked by quarrelers. In which case my plan is viable. The dryads can hold up the Saurus for a turn while I break one of the flanking quarrelers and then have a flank charge into the saurus

    Remember also that while the knight units can probably break and eliminate the quarrellers rather quickly its wishful thinking to assume that either unit will be intact when they do so. We do after all have an enchanted grudge thrower which is unnaturally accurate. Wounding on 3's and leaving you with a 6+ ward. Not to mention the pretty shape of the lance formation in regards to the blast template, even in a single line the knights are vulnerable to the grudge throwers attention, a single hit has a pretty good chance of killing up to half the unit after all.
    Your enchanted, accurate grudgethrower still needs LoS to my knights, which it wont have if I use the dryads to screen our approach (barring you having a hill in your deployment zone of course)

    Then of course we have the saurus cavalry who sport 10 S5 and 5 S4 attacks on the charge, 15S4 attacks standing and are still as fast as the bretonian knights (and fear, don’t forget fear). We also have to remember the jaguar saurus of doom. he is even faster than the knights and more manoeuvrable depending if he is running solo or joining the saurus cavalry with his S7 attacks, sure he will allow 5+ wards against his attack, but there is also little to no armour save in response.
    Firstly the CoR aren't as fast as my knights, secondly if I am using the dryads to screen the approach the JSoD cannot declare a charge on me until I am good and ready to leave the cover the dryads provide and declare a charge of my own first.

    if the knights keep pace with the dryads (meaning an average speed of 8" a turn) it pretty much doubles the amount of time required to reach the dwarf/lizard lines. the idea that you can remain behind cover until you are able to charge is pretty optimistic in my eyes, if this were a game of 40k I could understand it, but in fantasy it would only serve to make you take even longer reaching our lines.
    I dont plan on using terrain as cover, I plan on using skirmishing dryad screens to avoid your ranged advantage. Skirmishing screens that are just about the best there are to absorb any quarreler and grudgethrower fire. The only problem that could happen is in the extremely unlikely event that you somehow annihilate both units of dryads right away.

    i generally feel you overestimate your ability to dictate the battle. We are just as fast if not faster than you in this battle seeing as our knights match yours in speed and we also sport the fastest model on the table. And with your battle plan seeming to waste resources (375 points dedicated to kill 140) i can only see victory for my own and stoney’s forces.
    You also are completely ignoring the 28 longbow shots per turn that our list has. I understand that they aren't the optimal weapon against t4 armies, but that many shots WILL hurt something. Most likely your quarrelers and/or saurus warriors will take damage from them with their 5+ saves vs shooting.

    Also, destroying a 140 pt unit with 375 points isn't wasted resources if it gives you a superior position to flank charge. I always tend to try to make sure I can completely destroy my target before moving on to the next unit.
    "I am the architect of fate!"

  11. #10
    /botnobot/ DavidWC09's Avatar
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    1283 (x8)

    Tossy and Demandred can throw enough shooting back to cause their own damage. The knights can move swiftly against their targets with Dryads moving in to mop up. My vote to Tossy and Demandred.
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