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DavidWC09 vs Esco Thomson
Are fighting for blood and glory on this map: http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/1340/map4.jpg
Spells are marked in red.
DavidWC09 is deployed on the left.
Esco thomson won the roll off 6-3 and so will go first.
Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch, lvl 4, general, Chaos Steed, Blood of Tzeentch, Crown of Command, Talisman of Endurance – spells: 6,3,5,1
Exalted Hero of Tzeentch, BSB, Chaos Steed, Favour of the Gods, Charmed Shield, Collar of Khorne, Golden Sigil Sword
24 Warriors of Tzeentch, full command, rapturous standard
8 Chaos Knights of Tzeentch, full command, blasted standard
5 horsemen of slaanesh, musician, light armor, flails
First off, here's to a good match against Esco T's dirty, naughty, nasty dark elves.
In this match, I have one of two ways to win: either break him or win by VPs.
Breaking his fortitude means killing the general, if I can get to her, or killing the BSB and capturing the dark elf warriors' banner. Winning by VPs means just what it means, a 100 VP spread.
Either way, I see myself using the same strategy and needing to go nose first into his army. This means, though, weathering his shooting and magic which he'll likely use in an attempt to whittle my units down before pouncing with his hydra and chariot bombs.
The plan is this: Deploy behind the hill which is a Temple of Skulls. As a note, I won't bother calling on the Temple's powers as it's not worth the risk in a game like this where my general or BSB could die and instantly break the army's fortitude.
Deploying behind the hill means his crossbowmen will be out of range. At this point, andre hasn't determined who goes first, so if the dark elves do, they'll lose that first turn of shooting at me.
Behind the hill, I will deploy something like this (but you'll have to rotate it 90 degrees to point towards the enemy).
K = Knights; W = Warriors; H = Hounds; M = Horsemen; WS and HC
********WS*HHHHH / MMMMM / HHHHH * HC**********
The Warshrine will deploy on the horizontal. This means my knights and warriors have a screen of either expendable hounds and horsemen or very hard to wound warshrine and hellcannon. They move up on my turn 1, keeping a tight formation.
Turn 2, he'll shoot the hounds and horsemen to ribbons. (Or turn 1 if the hill is low). Once the hounds and horsemen are gone, the hellcannon and shrine will move in front of the knights and warriors, furnishing a second screen. The shrine stays either horizontal or angled to provide the most cover. Hopefully their high toughness, the shrine's armor and ward, the hellcannon's armor and handlers, will absorb most of the shooting.
On turn 3, hopefully I'm in position to charge in with all the remaining units, especially my screeners as they'll have to get out of the way for my other units.
I'm guessing he'll try to engage first with his hydra and chariots and delay me getting to his warriors and sorceress and bsb. As long as I engage the hydras with any unit of than the warriors, I'll deny them thunderstomps.
Assuming this encounter does indeed take place, it'll determine how the game goes. I think I can win a grind out combat with the hydras and the chariots might cause a lot of damage but with my knights stubborn and the warriors rapturous standard, they'll probably die in the 2nd round of combat. If I can kill the hydras, too, then I've put myself in good shape for winning by VPs in case I can't get to his banners and general for breaking them.
If I do get through in time, I'll aim for the general and BSB and hope to take them out, preferring the general over a hag supported by a cauldron.
Magic will be big. Obviously, I'll toss 6 dice whenever possible at pandaemonium. If additional dice are available, I'll look to cast flickering fire or gateway on his crossbowmen, again angling for the VP win as well as reducing their effectiveness. The #5 spell isn't a lot of help in this game will beignored.
So the idea is to turtle up behind first my expendable units, then my big toughs and then charge out and engage, scooping up VPs, hoping to break through for his general, bsb, and banner, but looking for a VP win as the likely outcomeas I don't think he has a good shot at breaking my fortitude.
Esco thomson’s list:
High Sorceress (General, Level 4, Sacrificial Dagger, Pendant of Khaeleth, Black Dragon Egg) - 350
[Lore of Shadow] – spells 6,6,5,3
Hag Queen (BSB, Cauldron of Blood) - 225
40 x Warriors (Full Command, Banner of the Eternal Flame) - 265
2 x 20 Repeater Crossbowmen (shields) - 440
2 x 5 Shades (additional hand weapon) - 170
2 x Cold One Chariot - 200
2 x War Hydra – 350
Okkam’s Mindrazor, The Withering, The Enfeebling Foe, Melkoth’s Mystifying Miasma
Cauldron goes touching a fence, but in the gap between the lower fences. Spears angled up and back from it, to use it to block direct access to them. One unit of Crossbows to the north and one unit to the south of the BSB, both touching fences, with the Hydras and Chariots looming on the flanks of the Spears for counter charging.
Magic is going to first be about dispelling/removing Pandaemonium from play. The Withering on the Warriors first to allow me to get more out of shooting. Miasma on knights to slow them down, and Enfeebling Foe when they approach combat, as well as Mindrazor on the units in combat. First round(s) the Cauldron will give the ward save to the Spears as it will likely be targeted by the Hellcannon. Switching to Killing Blow for Combats to help with silly armor… Both Shades will target the Horsemen first, and then each takes out a unit of Hounds. Afterwards they will focus fire on the Warriors, and if the Shades don’t die, the Knights. Crossbows are going to focus fire on the Warriors, as with one Withering, I should be able to drop at least 5 after armor and ward. By eliminating the soft targets fast, he is left with the two main units advancing, so splitting my debuffs/buffs to where they are needed is not going to be difficult. Hopefully I can get a unit to charge the Cauldron, and I will gladly accept the challenge there. With the ward save, and buff/debuffs there shouldn’t be an issue, and if no character is present, he only will get two knights/6 warriors…thanks to the War Machine abuse there. Once his stuff arrives, I will simply send out the Chariots and Hydras to hit his forces.
His stuff is tough, and the knights aren’t going to drop to my shooting, but the Warriors can and will. All of my break points are holed up in my Spear block, and with terrain and other units, I can set it up so that he is only pelting me with magic/Hellcannon shots on them, and I will focus on stopping the magic damage, and warding from the Cannon, and just taking him down.
Match will run until Wednesday evening.
Please vote in bold
Now THIS is a match I'd love to see played out. Based on tactics and lists, I assume the magic phase is going to be more or less a wash, each countering each other, and effectively canceling each other out.
It's interesting the the Dark Elves seem a bit unprepared for the Chaos Warriors' strategy. The hellcannon throws a major wrench into the plans of the Dark Elves, because that, along with the warshrine, are just what Chaos needs to tip the close combats in their favor.
I think both sides are overestimating the damage they'll do, in some respects. Despite what Esco says, the Chaos Warriors are not going to die easily, especially after they reach close combat, and get a 5+ ward save on top of their base 3+ armor save. Also, the knights probably aren't going to fall at all. On the other hand, despite what David says, I don't see the warriors/knights dealing with the hydras that quickly.
Most of the match will probably be a slow grind in the middle of the board, with most of Esco's non-chariot/hydra units not doing much, and its a fight I believe that Chaos will win. However, by then Chaos will have been taken casaulties, and might be easier to wipe out.
All in all, it's a very tough match to call, because a lot depends on difficult to determine factors, like on whose turn the close combat in the middle of the board finishes, or how the magic phases go.
I'm tempted to call it a draw, but I refuse to be that anticlimactic. So if I have to determine a winner, I have to say that both sides have about an equal chance of 'breaking' the other (it's a matter of destroying one very tough unit, either way), but I have to give a slight edge to Chaos, simply because they're more likely to win the combat in the center of the board, and after that they'll be ahead on victory points, because:
marauders + hounds < 2 hydras + 2 chariots
Again, it could go either way, but I have to give the edge to Chaos.
Last edited by mynameisgrax; November 8th, 2010 at 20:01.
Since no one is voting, save 1, and I know we aren't supposed to vote on our own, I will just take the initiative and vote 6 times for myself.
No, I kid.
In all honesty, this should be fine, if not please remove it, and I apologize David.
I was really busy and gone all weekend, so had delayed tactics, in which I also forgot to ask something that is rather important for BOTH sides to know.
With true line of sight in 8th, how high is that Temple going, I mean I love the work that went into the maps, but I don't think this battle could be called without knowing that.
David based his deployment assuming it was tall I gather, and I know I based mine assuming it was just a standard hill with a small temple in the middle, or perhaps even just the rune of chaos literally on the ground etched into the top.
I am not suggesting we go back and redeploy or anything, just some clarification so that people can properly gauge how/what impact this has on shooting/his movement around.
Because if it is pretty much flat, I am sure it is more in his favor to just run up and over(barring scree slopes), etc.
Is that ok to say?
It's Adventure Time!
2010 'Ardboyz Champion
No posting in the thread! Bad Esco! ^_^
Seriously though, if you need to post something, you should really PM Andre or post it in the summary/scoreboard thread.
That said, where the hell is everybody? Hello? Am I really going to be the one to decide this match with a single vote?
Yeah, I wondered, too. If it's high enough you can't see my guys. If it's low you can, but you'd have to move forward to shoot with rpt xbows and deal with hard cover, so I'm starting behind it either way.
And I just voted for myself 7 times, so nyah...
Votewars always have a low number of voters, and some people lose interest after being knocked out. It's just the way it goes.
I think Dark Elves are going to stomp, just based upon the magic available. Throwing 6 dice at pandemonium is just not smart, and he lacks Treason of Tzeentch which is essential really.
Shadow magic hexing and range will absolutely destroy the Chaos Warriors who then have to wade through a horde and 2 chariots!??!?
Hydras can simply outflank anything that is left anyway.
This battle was over before it even began.
edit: I vote ESCO THOMPSON
Last edited by Ascendo Tuum; November 9th, 2010 at 18:08.
Sona si Latine loqueris.
while chaos hit harder than elves my vote has to go to the dark elves becuase the hydras will do far more damage than people belive and while i disagree with mynameisgrax his maths is correct
marauder+hounds < 2 hydra + 2 chariot is indeed true
< (less than)
= (equal to)
> (more Than)
Personally I find this match very hard to deside on. Both sides have some potentialy nasty magic, and both sides have some tough units. Esco Thomson has the advantage of shooting, but if those knights/warriors make their way to cc in an nice position then its all over. I do belive that throwing the chariots and a bunch of bolts into the unit of warriors may reduce its fightingcapabilities, but im having a real hard time seeing anything harm the knights - unless Esco Thomson succesfully grants his warriors or something like that Killing Blow with his Cauldron - and as I see this as definetly a possibility, my vote will go to the dark elves.