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So, the last match in this VoteWar is here!
Tashin vs. Esco Thomson
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Tashin left, Esco right
Esco has first turn
Lord(Shield, Heartwood Lance, Dragonhelm, Opal Amulet, Virtue of Heroism)
Prophetess(Level 4[Heavens], Warhorse, Dispel Scroll)
Paladin(BSB, Sword of Battle, Armor of Agilulf, Dragonbane Gem)
Paladin(Grail Vow, Lance, Royal Pegasus, The Grail Shield, The Other Trickster’s Shard)
15 x Peasant Bowmen(Braziers) -
15 x Peasant Bowmen(Braziers)
9 x Knights Errant(Full Command, Errantry Banner)
8 x Knights of the Realm(Full Command, Banner of the Eternal Flame)
7 x Knights of the Realm(Full Command, Standard of Discipline)
3 x Pegasus Knights
2 x Trebuchet
Spells: Iceshard Blizzard, Harmonic Convergence, Uranon’s Thunderbolt, Comet of Cassandora
One unit of Archers deploys in the Wizard’s Tower, the other on the line behind the Dwarven Brewhouse, moving up and into the house on my first turn. Trebuchets will deploy towards the back between the tower and the brewhouse, staggered slightly to give a broader arc. Lord and Prophetess will deploy with Discipline Realms, and start below the tower, but within 3” for Loremaster. BSB with Flaming Realms on the upper side of the tower, with Errants above them. Pegasus Hero will deploy on the line right above on my side of the river. Pegasus Knights going above the Errant block, Vanguarding up.
Archers will focus first on the Marauder Horsemen, followed by the Warhounds, and lastly Marauders. Trebuchets will go after the Marauders first, followed up by the Warriors, and Chosen.
Magic will be conservative to minimize Puppet interference. Convergence, Blizzard, and Curse to be used if/when combat ensues to help out. Comets will be aimed about 7” in front of his lines, or dead center should he camp near the well. Thunderbolt on Warriors, Lightning only if he deploys his blocks close enough for bounces. Dispelling will focus on Seizures, and Delusions, and such, using my Scroll when needed.
Pegasus Knights and Pegasus Hero will focus on flying around and eliminating the soft targets, and avoiding charges. Marauder Horsemen, Warhounds, and waiting until the Marauder block has been thinned down, and attempting Flank and Rear Charges there.
Knight blocks will attempt to just avoid combat if possible. The goal will be to utilize superior movement to give me more time to rid him of his support blocks, leaving the small units of Warriors, Warshrine, and Characters. Nothing will over commit itself. When combat is nearing and seems unavoidable, I will combo charge his units, aiming for flanks if possible. My lord will attempt to answer his characters thanks to HKB.
It is worth noting if he tries to deploy towards the top, and bunker up, I will simply bombard the area with Trebuchets, and Comet while staying out of his spell range.
Superior movement coupled with ranged presence should secure the Lady’s favor, and victory.
Tashin landed a Watchtower on the map; however the scenario doesn’t reward anyone for controlling it.
Big thanks to Rising Leviathan and Cannibal God for the VW. Good Luck Tashin.
29x Marauders, MoK, great weapons, full command
12x Chaos Warriors, MoN, halberds, musician, standard w/ Banner of Rage
10x Marauder Horsemen, MoS, flails, light armour, standard, musician
12x Chosen of chaos, MoT, shields, musician, standard w/ Wailing banner, champion w/ favored of the Gods
Exhalted Hero, MoK, Juggernaugth, Dawnstone
Exhalted Hero, BSB, MoT, shield, Armour of Morslieb, steed of chaos
Sorcerer Lord, MoS, lvl 4, Infernal Puppet, Crown of Command, Charmed shield, Necrotic Phylactery, Diabolic Splendor
Alright! In real life this match up wouldn’t have been as doomy looking, as this one is. First of all, Esco has Loremaster on his Prophetess, he has the Dwarven Brewhouse giving him Stubborn, he has the advantage of charge-reach and lances, and last – and probably most threatening in this tournament form – he has Trebuchets and Archers. Now, as I stressed in the last match up, I honestly think that everyone are overrating the damage of warmachines in this specific tournament. Two trebuchets are nasty, and yes they’ll probably kill a dozen Marauders or a handful of Chaos Warriors, but no way in the Chaos Realm are they gonna wipe out any of my units all by themselves!
Also, let me get this final down straight strategy-wise. This fight is NOT about overwhelming my opponent in a straightforward charge, and it is NOT about getting into combat asap. It is all about getting into the right combats and all about minimizing casualties, thereby minimizing Esco’s VP and maximizing my own.
As Esco will probably pray, I’ll have the initiative, and with that in mind I’ll deploy and vanguard my Horsemen directly opposite of the trebuchets, thus with a extremely reckless 16” march move bringing me just a few inch away from a trebuchet in turn 1. That way, I’ll have 1 trebuchet down already after my second turn, halfing his ranged damageoutput.
With the trebuchet damage haltered, I can focus on getting into favourable positioning against Esco’s blocks of knights. This is how it’ll happen. 6 dice on Ecstatic Seizures every single magicphase targeting any unit of knights (pref. not one with the Prophetess in), simply cutting his knight-units down a third with each cast. With just a single successful cast I’ll have reduced his knight units to approximately 5 knights, making them totally useless against my high-strengt, high initiative blocks of Marauders/Chaos Warriors. Also, with Titilating Delusions I’ll be able to draw out weakened Knights.
And here is the most important part of my tactic. The Wyrding Well. By positioning all my blocks 3” from the Well, I’ll be able to regain any lost wounds caused by Esco, and with a reduced knight strength his charge into my tough warshrine/wardsave chosen/5 men wide steadfast marauders, his lances will count for nothing and my counterattack will be devastating.
Esco, Good job.
Voting ends in 72 hours. (3 days)
I would like to thank everyone who have done this VoteWar what it is, everyone who submitted lists, everyone who voted, and last but not the least, @Cannibal God for his excellent maps.
Last edited by Rising Leviathan; June 20th, 2011 at 22:40.
5000p. High Elves
I think the Chaos have the advantage. Good use of the Wyrding Well. The shooting can't win it and the Brettonians won't quite break the Chaos in one charge \, so will be doomed to strike T4 high armour Warriors with pitiful S3 attacks.
Well, the final, well done both players getting here.
As it is, I really dont see the knights being able to effectively combat the warriors after the first round of combat, which in itself will not be enough. WOC
The way I see it, Tashin is handing over the Dogs (Chaos always does) and the MCav. Whether or not the MCav are going to make it to the Trebs is up for debate. If he had elected to charge from a flank, and take cover behind the tower, he might be able to get around and do some damage. The problem with Vanguard is that he's going to advance, but he can't charge on his first turn. The Brets are going to just speedbump right through him or shoot him into the ground before he gets into contact.
Without any way to stop a high valued cast of Comet, it's going to be a race for Esco to throw it onto the well, and unless he goes for Boosted, he's going to need it to cast early and land late to do much damage. Problem is that he's charging towards it too, so if it hits too late, it'll rip through the Brets as well.
I don't think that the Brets are going to be able to break the backs of the Warriors though. Tashin wasn't too clear on the deployment, but if he keeps his lines tight, he should be able to turn to face the knights without exposing many flanks. And if those Knights go face-first into Chaos Warriors, they're going to bounce. Especially if Tashin can keep casting Ecstatic Seizures without blowing himself up.
So the question is this: how many points are the Warriors going to give up, versus how many will the Brets give away. The Warriors are already behind because they're trading out the MCav and Hounds, and losing the MCav isn't going to make up Point-for-point both Trebuchets. So even if the tactic works, the WoC are starting out behind.
The Brets on the other hand aren't going to be losing their Bowmen. Tashin isn't focusing on them, and they're hiding away in buildings that would require Tashin moving. The only ones in danger are those in the Brewhouse, but Tashin seems content just letting them fire away.
So it's down to the Knight combats for Tashin to remake points. He'll probably kill off a unit with magic, so there's about +200pts. That leaves 2 Knight units and block of PegKnights to contend with. If they get into combat with a block, he'll get the Peg Knights. But the other units are the problem- if they double charge, he's not going to wipe them out to a man, and if either unit holds, the other one gets away clean.
Honestly, I think it could be fought to a draw. But I have to say, I've got to go against the grain here and give it to the Brets. It's not so much on the merit of their troops, but Tashin's strategy is going to provide a lot of opportunities for them to score easy VPs, and Tashin is going to fighting for his. There's very little that can really "go right" for Tash's strategy that would make much of a difference- in fact, he almost HAS to take out both Trebs just to make up the points for his MCav. The Brets are fighting a solid game, and if it goes right, their score will simply explode (good drop on Comet, one of the Warrior units folds, etc).
Gotta hand it to the Brets, but it's close.
well. thats a tough one. I dont think i can vote for one without regret so nice job both of ya
Armylist: both lists are made up of what i think is their armybook's top tier. I think the Chaos list is far superior to the Brets'.
map: It's a full map, with many buildings and magical advantages. The brets have a more maneuverable army as mentioned, so the crampy situation is more hurtfull to the brets, both players use the buildings wisely. Don't get me started about that river! i've lost my last battle with bretts because the enemy effectively hid along the rivershores. lanceformations lose their ranks and take dangerous terrains all over the place. this map kicks Esco in the face.
magic: The Chaos have an advantage in the magic phase, although the miscasts might end up destroying his own mage and it's unlikely the spells will actually kill off an entire Brett unit, several might be heavily damaged. Trebuchets will restore the ranged-war balance.
Tactics: I think staying with units near the well was aHUGE mistake. The chaos cannot win this by Holding ground and thats what it sounds like to me (correct me if im wrong please!). the Brets are heavily outmatched in close combat and Esco knows it. he avoids the combat and hopes for a victory. Tash does nothing but give his speedy units up for grabs and waiting for magic to finish this. A more aggressive approach and it would have been an easy win, but now im going with Captin sarathai instead.
Warchief Diggah o da Bloodmoon Squiggahs
I think that chaos makes a big mistake in not aggressively taking the fight to the brets, especially when the bretonnians have a big advantage from range, even though bretonnian movement is superior, the terrain is against them because of its cramped layout and the length of the lance, if chaos sticks to the plan of staying near the well then i think they will either get shot enough to allow bretonnians to win, or if the vanguard move actually works then it comes down to how long the warriors will hold thier positions, i dont think the marauder cavalry will close with the trebs, but if they do, the bretonnians can still win if they get enoug time to slam several lances into single units, there is allot that warriors can kill but if the brets get the combined charge they could easily take out a few units, esp with the pegasi around the back
final vote Brets win
From what I gather, people overestimate the number of options Tashin has here. Trying to move forward aggressively could work, yes. But it's just as likely to open his units up for flank or rear charges, especially when trying to catch far more maneuverable units.
Now, assuming Tashin keeps his close formation, and the knights subesequently won't rush in and risk being tied down / countercharged -he'll lose the hounds, and he'll loose the marauder horsemen. That's 248 points lost, and that's all he'll ever loose. Assuming somewhat averaged roles, even with all archers, all trebuchets alive and the comet every turn (as risky as it is), I don't see any of his other units dying while sitting on the well.
On the other hand, we have the knights - while they don't give their points away as easily, there's a whole lot of stuff that can get wrong for them.
- A unit of knights dies to the Seizures (at least ~210 points)
- A paladin dies to the Seizures (at least ~145 points)
- The marauder horsemen, since only shooting was aimed at them, reach a trebuchet or both (at least 90 points)
- The prophetess, despite caution, blows herself up with an unlucky comet / puppet
- A unit of Knights moves a little too far, gets delusioned and subsequently charged
Only one, maybe two of these things need to happen over the course of six turns, and the warriors are in the plus again. It'll be a close game, and for the most part pretty boring for Tashin, but since Draw is not an option, my vote goes to the WoC
The Silver Knights of Tor Adrac (He): 26/2/4
The Spears of Slaanesh (Woc): 7/2/5
Battlegroup Chalybso (GK): 7/3/3
Thats not happenings. The knight tactisc state that the pegasusus and hero are also targetting them first.Originally Posted by CastiellThey won't be needing to. The Warriors are going to have to coming across the table.Originally Posted by Andre
Brets will wins here. Thinking that the warriors can win the game by sitting by a well with no ranged other than one spell, seems bolded. Also seeing as the knights has resistence to magicks and scroll.
How can you Master the Masterless?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the trebuchets deploy between the buildings, while the pegasi deploy near the river, on the other end of the field. A charge directly towards the trebuchets in turn one would leave the marauder horsemen near the buildings, and the wizards tower between them and the pegasi. The only unit I see intervening, aside from the archers, would be the unit with the lord and sorceress (thus getting her into a closecombat).
The Silver Knights of Tor Adrac (He): 26/2/4
The Spears of Slaanesh (Woc): 7/2/5
Battlegroup Chalybso (GK): 7/3/3
the lanceformations are still near the trebs when the marauders move in during turn 1. Those marauders should be gone in an eye blink. It's just one of those 'unavoidable' combat situations that esco mentioned.
Last edited by Digger; June 23rd, 2011 at 16:15.
Warchief Diggah o da Bloodmoon Squiggahs