VW FBVW MkII - Match 8: Raiders of the Ashen Coast vs. Bretonnia - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    LO Zealot Spector's Avatar
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    131 (x5)

    FBVW MkII - Match 8: Raiders of the Ashen Coast vs. Bretonnia

    Map: 1 http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6356/deathhillto2.png

    Raiders of Ashen Coast

    HEROES:
    Noble (General. Rides in chariot): 119
    -Lance
    -Heavy armour, Sea dragon cloak, Enchanted Shield.
    -Seal of Ghrond (+1 dispel dice)

    Noble, Battle Standard Bearer - 140 (Joins Spearmen)
    -Heavy armour, Sea dragon cloak
    -Sword of Might
    -Talisman of Protection

    Sorceress, level 1 - 140 (hides safely in a forest/building etc).
    -2x Dispel scrolls

    CORE:
    18 Corsairs (6x3) - 230 (within 12" of BS
    -Full Command
    -Warbanner (+1 combat resolution)

    18 Corsairs (6x3) - 195 (within 12" of BS
    -Musician
    -Standard bearer

    20 Spearmen (5x4) - 185 (BSB here)
    -Full command
    -Shields

    5 Dark Riders - 127 (flankers)
    Musician, Repeater crossbows

    SPECIAL:
    6 Harpies - 78 (war machine hunters)

    Cold one Chariot with spears - 97 (Noble here)
    Cold one Chariot with spears - 97 (stays next to Noble for combined charge)

    5 Cold One Knights - 172 (flankers)
    -Dread Knight, Musician

    RARE:
    Reaper bolt thrower
    Reaper bolt thrower

    War Hydra

    TOTAL = 2000
    Power Dice: 3
    Dispel Dice: 4 (2 Scrolls)

    NOTES:

    -Sea Dragon Cloaks (+1 to armour save, +2 against shooting).
    -Chariots & Cold one Knights cause fear

    DEPLOYMENT:
    Spearmen in the centre, with Battle standard.
    War Hydra on one side of them. Chariots (+General) on other side. Then a unit of Corsairs next to the Hydra & Chariots.
    This gives me a centre where 3 strong units of infantry all benefit from both the Battle Standard bearer & the General's leadership value, making them very resistant..
    The War Hydra will cause Terror tests to anything that charges it or the units next to it.

    Dark Riders & Cold one Knights will deploy on each flank. Once the centre units have tied up enemies in combat, these units will flank charge if possible.
    The Dark riders can also act as march blockers against armies which are fast enough to charge me first. Or bait enemies to charge & then flee, leaving them stranded & exposed to counter charges

    Harpies deploy where-ever they can find a path to enemy war machines to slice up the crew, keeping my units safe. Or flanking.
    Sorceress is placed somewhere that she cant be easily reached, shot or killed. Keeping my magic defense in tact & denying easy victory points.

    Bolt throwers will NEVER deploy next to eachother. I always keep them seperate so that 1 single tactic can never get both of them (so for example, fliers or a burrowing unit can only attack 1, not both).
    They will shoot down tough units such as monsters (Giants, Ushabti etc) or well armoured units like Cavalry.

    My army will advance quickly. The centre units will mostly maintain that original formation to keep all those benefits.
    I dont have a lot of magic defence, but it's enough to ward of any major damage while I advance. Once I reach combat, it is less of a problem (wizards are killed or cant see etc).

    Both Chariots will charge units head on at the same time, causing 2D6+2 S5 impact hits + 3 S6 attacks + 7 S4 attacks, enough to crush almost anything.
    The Hydra will charge & cause terror tests amongst the enemies centre (at least 1 unit should flee per game).

    Vs.

    Bretonnia

    Lords:

    Bretonnian Lord = 249
    Grail Vow
    Birth-Sword of Carcassonne
    Grail Shield
    Mantle of Damsel Elena
    Heavy Armor
    Barded Warhorse

    Heroes:

    Paladin (BS = 109
    Heartwood Lance
    Heavy Armor
    Barded Warhorse

    Damsel = 120
    Level 1 Wizard
    2x Dispel Scroll

    Core Units:

    Knights Errant = 181
    7 Knights
    Cavalier
    Musician
    Standard Bearer
    Errantry Banner

    Knights of the Realm = 176 (BS
    7 Knights
    Gallant
    Musician

    Knights of the Realm = 176
    7 Knights
    Gallant
    Musician

    24 Men-At-Arms
    Musician
    Standard Bearer

    Peasant Bowmen = 150 (Damsel)
    20 Bowmen
    Musician
    Skirmish
    Brazier

    Special Units:

    Pegasus Knights = 175
    3 Knights
    Gallant
    Musician

    Mounted Yeomen = 103
    6 Yeomen
    Shields
    Musician


    Rare Units:

    Grail Knights = 321 (Lord)
    7 Knights
    Musician
    Standard Bearer
    Conquerer's Tapestry

    Trebuchet
    Yeoman Craftsman

    Total: 1995
    Power Dice: 3
    Dispel Dice: 3 (2 scrolls)


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  3. #2
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    3 (x1)

    2 good lists but my vote goes for Brettonia and their abbominations called pegasus knights, the worst mistake in GW history after Squats.

    Both players went for cavalry off course but in the end brettonia wil win because of their ward save, better charge range than cold ones aND off course the pegasus knights.

  4. #3
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    117 (x6)

    Ok,
    in this situation I would leave my chariots, Hydra & Cold One knights back afew inches from my 3 main infantry units (compared to how I described deployment). The infantry would take the charges & have a decent chance of surviving, due to BSB + generals leadership & good static combat res bonuses. (perhaps not against Grail Knights, they hurt!) then next turn I'd charge my Chariots & hydra in, and flank with the CO Knights & Dark riders.

    Magic is a non-issue in this battle.

    Even with a (low) ward save, some rank penetrating shots from the bolt throwers can significantly weaken the Knight units.
    I dont think 1 unit of Pegasus Knights could get both bolt throwers before this.

    Terror from the Hydra & also fear is bound to cause afew failed tests against Brets who havent got the greatest Ld.

    I think having the lord with Grail Knights is overkill & gives him 1 super powerful unit, leaving the other units lacking a bit.

    That hill in the middle probably works in my favor. It somewhat stops the typical Bretonain 'Charge up the middle' tactic. The battle would be fought more around the flanks.

    I would probably get first turn due to 'praying', that means I could get my units up on the hill & make them even more survivable. Also helps my Bolt throwers to have first turn.
    If he doesnt pray then no ward saves, except for the Grail Knights.

    Would be an interesting one.

    PS- check out the sig lol

    Cheers
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
    W L D
    21 5 5

  5. #4
    Now 17% more helpful gingerninja's Avatar
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    262 (x7)

    This one is probably the tightest battle I have seen so far. On one hand you have a steady set of very good warriors with some excellent flanking units. On the other you have a brilliant cavalry charge, with a decent amount of archery and some flying attack knights...

    The first turn the Bretts are going to be praying, so the battle doesn't really start till turn two. The bolt throwers are unlikely to have a juicy target till then anyway.

    If the Brets get a clean charge charge on the corsairs, then this is the combat situation:

    6 Ws4 attacks (knights) = 3 hits
    Str 5 vs toughness 3 = 3 wounds
    3 dead

    5 Ws3 attacks (horses) = 3 hits
    Str 3 vs toughness 3 = 1-2 wounds
    1 dead

    2 attacks back from the Dark elves

    4 attacks = 2 hits
    2 hits = 1 wound
    = no wounds (probably off of a 2+ save)

    Therefore combat res

    Brets: 1 rank + standard + 4 kills = 6
    Dark elves: 2 ranks + standard = 3

    Dark elves lose by 3. Possible break, even with re-rolls. (Assuming that the general's leadership cannot be used.)

    This is going to be problematic for the Dark elves. The game will be fought on how the charges are dealt with. If the Dark Elves survive the charge, then they will win, if they don't it's game over.

    I am giving this game to the Brets just, because I don't think the Dark elves can inflict enough damage with shooting before the charge comes.

    :ninja: out
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  6. #5
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    117 (x6)

    Those comabt res figures only work for the 1 unit of corsairs without War banner or BSB

    The other 2 units will have:
    +2-3 ranks
    +1 Outnumber
    +1 Standard bearer
    +1 BSB or Warbanner
    & possibly +1 for getting onto that hill
    +1 kill from the BSB Noble

    Brets: 7-8 approx
    DE: (see above) = 5-7 approx

    At worst thats only a break test at roughly Ld8 with a re-roll(& yes they will be within range of the general)

    Thats easy to hold for 1 turn & then Bret's are in trouble..
    I just did about 5 rounds of proxy rolls for Paladin+Knight unit charging BSB+Spears or Corsairs+warbanner, didn't break once.
    (assuming 1-2 knights are dead to bolt throwers, fair assumption. & Not including hill bonus).

    Cheers
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
    W L D
    21 5 5

  7. #6
    Now 17% more helpful gingerninja's Avatar
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    262 (x7)

    True, but I am also taking it for the weakest unit of knights hitting it. It gets worse if it's Paladin unit with the BSB in it. It's just my opinion on that front. I said it was a tight battle, but I think there is just enough on the charge for the Dark Elves to break.

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  8. #7
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    A combined strike of the boltthowers and the chariots are the only ways I can see the Dark elves getting rid of the brettonian flying death ponies before they wipe the elves like toilet paper.

    The elves have put alot of points on foot soldiers which are next to nothing against brettonia. The only way they can maintain a solid defence, is if they stick as a group, using the hyrda as the last resort flank guard in an arc formation. Cold one knights should make straight for the trebutchet.

    Brettonia is just too strong in this match, with good shooting and a fair few cavalry units that are next to impossible to destroy with st3, the elves have it against them, especially on such an open map. Only if the general of the brettonians is a 100% diet yoghurt, do I see the elves gaining a good strategic position at any stage.

    Brettonia wins

  9. #8
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    117 (x6)

    Quote Originally Posted by AsraiFlame View Post
    A combined strike of the boltthowers and the chariots are the only ways I can see the Dark elves getting rid of the brettonian flying death ponies before they wipe the elves like toilet paper.
    How is 1 unit of Pegs gonna wipe my whole army? Plus I have my own fliers & light cavalry to hold them up with.

    The elves have put alot of points on foot soldiers which are next to nothing against brettonia. The only way they can maintain a solid defence, is if they stick as a group
    They are sticking together.. along with a BSB + generals Ld.. Its all in my notes..

    Brettonia is just too strong in this match, with good shooting and a fair few cavalry units that are next to impossible to destroy with st3
    I dont need to 'destroy' them with S3 attacks (plus I have S6 shots & plenty of S5 attacks). All my infantry need to do is survive a charge for 1 turn (easy), then Brets are going to get flanked & also a chariot/Hydra in the face.
    & what good shooting? Treb needs to guess & then scatter & possibly misfire, while harpies hunt the crew. Peasant bowmen are useless here.

    So far people only seem to be voting on the general ideas about the 2 races ('elves are only S3 T3'.. 'bretonnians hit hard & have pegasus knights') rather than the lists... Sorry but going by your comments, if this DE list "cant/impossible" beat Bret's then almost no DE list could. Are you really saying that?

    I can understand not understanding the subtlties of DE strength, they are a tricky finesse army, but thats what my notes & replies are for.
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
    W L D
    21 5 5

  10. #9
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    Looking to the list for a third time, I am swayed, but not quite yet convinced. With five cc cavalry units and a trebutchet (with enough experience, this isn't too hard for some players to guess) an advancing line of DE is going to have one of their units hit by two cavalry units. This will break the line.

    Also, the skirmish peasant bowmen should be able to dispatch the harpies from my experience, and if they reach the hill (guarded by the cavalry charge) it means more difficulty for the DE.

    Boltthrowers are mean, but will be difficult to use once combat starts, which will be quite early. Your opponent will also see your wisom in seperating your boltthrowers and will probably flank charge/counter flank your chariots instead as they will pose the more immediete threat. I also think, once they get past your main line, you will have a hard time stopping at least one rear charge, bolthrowers or not.

    The hydra is a strong point, its flank charge can win you the game, but I think you are overconfident with its terror on the knights. The men at arms are a small smudge on the sonar it's true, but one sucessful charge by his knights can destroy your monster, which is more likely than your hydra charging them.

    If there was more scenery to divde or squeeze the brettonian advance, then I would say you would win as you could concentrate your forces more effectively, but death hill isn't doing you any favors.

    The brettonians can hold out with their armor, leadership and strength, most likely giving a second combat round. But one break is all that will be needed to throw the elves which is fifty-fifty from what i figure, mostly from wounds, which is my main reason why I choose Brettonia. With a sucessful pursuit after a first combat round break, the cold one flank counter will be of no help.

  11. #10
    Son of LO Manu_Forti's Avatar
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    117 (x6)

    Thanks for posting again to better explain your thoughts. I dont mind losing a vote war, but not to comments like 'Brets win coz they hav pegasus knights!' lol

    Just want to say that the chariots & hydra wont be flankable or really even chargable. As I said theyll be between the infantry units & afew inches back. Ready to hit whatever gets bogged down by infantry. I know Brets are renowned for charge power, but Ive done a tonne of proxy rolling & they still havent broken. Im just not convinced that anything other than the Grail Knights has what it takes to smash my line. In which case my tactics would probably work.

    You are right that the peasents would down the harpies if they went for the Trebuchet since there is no scenery to fly to & from safely.
    I guess I would rely on the treb scattering or bad guesses, and use the harpies & dark riders around the hill to march block Knights. And also bait charges :shifty:
    Or like you said, maybe send the Cold one Knights after the Treb. 2+ save would shrug off the bowmen.

    After thought: Does that hill count as open-terrain? Being so large I orginally assumed it was impassable or difficult or something, now im not so sure?

    Cheers
    Dark Elves - Game #28 vs High Elves: Draw
    W L D
    21 5 5

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