Fluff for the Nippon Armybook (Needs more help!)

[Mushin]

I like the two ideas you have, i think the skaven should show up at some period in clan eshin finding Nippon and causing some minor cultural exchange with the peasantry? I'm not sure if you planned to expand on the fluff for specific shoguns or clans.

Having a period time with a few major clans warring or perhaps alliances of clans warring (think romance of the three kingdoms, but obviously japan and not china) could be interesting and used to expand on some differences between clans, fighting styles/specialties. Other than that maybe write up some specific event story's that focus on a legendary warrior. Both of these ideas could be written in a pseudo historical fashion that is highly shrouded in unknowns and with a solid amount of dramatization/exaggeration. for a legendary warrior it could be, unscrupulous daimyo X was a bad dude but didn't directly go against bushido, none in his domain could stand up to him so when he sent a force to subdue some villages that stopped paying the exorbitant tithes he demanded, one of his samurai (a legendary warrior perhaps) defied him and defended the village against all the lesser samurai the daimyo sent until he came himself and was also defeated. Think 'lone samurai' legends.

sorry I can't be more help, thats a pretty massive time period to fill, good luck

-SL

[Deadstar_MRC]

I'm of a similar opinion to that of Mushin's - I think both ideas you've presented are good ones, but I unfortunately can't help fill the rest of the 4000 years!

I did have one additional idea, though, based on what you said about the Skaven, and the emergence of Ninja from the aftermath of their appearance. I know you said you didn't intend including them as playable models, but perhaps they could play a part in the background.

Maybe somewhere in the realm of 20-50 years after the Skaven first make their presence felt, the Ninja clans emerge from their clandestine training houses and, in a single night of hundreds or perhaps thousands of assassinations, try to overthrow the Shogun and take power for themselves? Or maybe they simply want to weaken the Shogun so that they then have to rely (for a time, at least) on the Ninja to maintain power. A very unstable relationship which could develop into a war between the Samurai and Ninja.

And I guess you could also have 'houses' or 'clans' for the Ninja, who would have their own rivalries and specialities. Maybe one particular group is tied up with the Yoaki somehow?

Don't know if any of these ideas are viable for what you've already got so far, but I thought I'd throw them out.

Also, I can't help but wonder if Ninjas would have some place in the army. Something like Goblin Fanatics or Dark Elf assassins, that hide somewhere within a unit and then sneak out and target enemy characters? Or some kind of shadow wizard that skulks around the battlefield sowing misinformation (redirecting units? inflicting psychological effects or other debuffs on them?) and strange magics about the place?

Again, don't know how well those ideas would work. But they're yours if you want them

[GMJoeSolarte]

If it's any consolation, Nehekara had risen long, long before Sigmar did as far as human civilization achievement went. Setra did his thing a good 3000 years or so before Sigmar came around, I think.

[CaptainSarathai]

I like the ideas guys, thanks!
I had ideas for Ninja in the book, but I don't know how I would make them work. I thought about making them Legendary Warriors, and having them exchange Bushido for another rule as part of the upgrade.
Goemon Goenbara shows up in a sort of cameo in the timeline. He's like the Japanese Robin Hood. I'm going to have him live for over 200 years, since in my version he's a shape-shifting Kitsune (notoriously troublesome Yokai)

I might replace the Ikko Ikki peasant rebels with Ninja for that particular ongoing war, with a throwback to history.

Lone Samurai will probably be "the first legendary warrior" and part of a Japanese tragedy, and an opportunity to show the potential cruelty of the Bushido Code. He'll probably retire to a secluded mountain to begin the first Dojo. He will not be Musashi, since Musashi is already planned as a special character.

Next thing:
This is probably better in the actual Armybook/Rules portion of the project, but I feel like the book needs more "fantasy" in the unit selections. Take a look at the new Empire stuff - they used to be very human-centric, with modest amounts of magic, and a theme revolving around Renaissance Germany. Now they've got all sorts of Gryphons and Demigryphs and huge magic warmachines and stuff. My book has a few Yokai units, but I want to find a way to make them super over-the-top and dripping with style.
They also need a "niche" to fill in the Warhammer world. It would be easy to recreate Samurai with the Empire, Brettonian, High Elf, or even Warriors of Chaos books, so I want to have something unique and different. I have about 20-30 units and different rules rolling around, most of which have already been playtested thoroughly, so I need to start pruning them towards a unified theme. What role is left unfulfilled in Fantasy right now? I know there are currently no Cavalry armies, but Brets will have that nailed down whenever they get a rewrite - I'm not looking to improve on an existing army type, I'm looking for a new one.

One thought that I had was limiting or even removing Wizards entirely, but having the units and characters themselves able to cast spells (like a Fantasy version of Grey Knights) and make Magic Resistance a prominent theme within the army. Initially I thought "20mm bases with elite combat, supported by decent cavalry units" but that reminds me too much of the High/Dark Elves.

So here I am again, asking you guys for ideas. What role should the army fill, in both the fiction and in game terms? What do you want to see that just hasn't been done yet?

[Kaleb Daark]

well, what a great thread!

Captain, how about Sohei as a unit option? The sohei were warrior priests and were often recruited by Daimyo's to fight along side them if they could justify the cause. There is documentation of a mighty battle with Sohei during the Kamakura period - so in game terms, they could be spell casters or blessed units.

There is a huge difference between the WuJen and the Shukenja and again between the Sohei. Scale armour, Naginata and perhaps the ability to be stubborn.

Lets not forget the Sashimono - the little standard the Samurai used to carry off their backs - perhaps these can have a minor blessing so that even a lowly ashiguru unit could have every man can carry a boon.

From the mystical side of the army we could work on spicing up the elemental and animism side of the magics, summoning great Tsunami and moving mountains (elementals), or great wind spirits which could blow a volley of arrows off course. But the elemental magic isn't in the summoning tree men and wood elf stuff. Ancestors could bless their heroes in challenges - after all, Lords and Daimyo's were keen to recite their lineage and bloodlines and challenge those of equal rank and honour. This might translate as a particular Nippon 'gift' how about this;

A hero, Daimyo or Shogun can summon the strength of his bloodline and honour of his name to force an enemy to fight. Nothing new here I hear you say... but what about if he could do it at any point and from any where in the battle? The characters are immediately placed in the centre of the field and fight it out.

Should the enemy refuse (perhaps a LD roll or such) then every enemy unit MUST take a roll or suffer -n leadership for the rest of the battle. The ancestors of the Samurai hero whisper into the minds of the enemy- showing them that their leader is a coward, his weaknesses and how could they possibly trust him with their loyalty and lives.

Also a nippon army should never have to suffer panic or flee tests - bushido instills too much pride for that - perhaps in this respect they should only apply when fighting another Nippon force?

I agree with perhaps no wizards as such as the wizard was very much a chinese thing.

Now how about Hengeyokai? shape shifters, not were creatures, but animals that can shape shift into human form?

just my two pennies worth at the moment I'm excited as I remember nippon from the original ravening hordes book back in 2nd ed!

[CaptainSarathai]

Thanks for the suggestions Kaleb. If you want to put any other comments into the Armybook thread, that's certainly fine by me ! The rules have changed a little bit from what's actually in that thread. I do have rules rattling around for Sohei units, possible uses for the Kitsune legends. The WuJen, Shuk[g]enja, and Hengeyokai are primarily a Dungeons&Dragons fixture based on very broad topics. Shugenja or 'Yamabushi' where followers of Shugendo Buddhism, and primarily lived in the mountains, and were persecuted by the military majority of Japan. The same is true of the Ikko-Ikki monks, who were deemed rebels and became primary targets for feudal Daimyo - particularly Takeda Shingen, who's first military conquest was driving a sect of the troublesome monks out of his domain. The Henge are a subsect of Yokai, meaning Shapeshifting. They include Tanuki (dogs/racoons), Kitsune (foxes), Okami (wolves), Bakeneko (cats - notably where the catgirl anime genre Neko comes from).
My personal favorite class of Yokai is actually the Tsukomogami - which were objects that came alive on the 100th anniversary of their creation, sort of like the characters in the Disney 'Beauty and the Beast.' A family friend from Japan brought me a 'Kameosa' one year - an old Sake jar from 1908 (unfortunately empty) and told me that I could drink anything but sake from it. If I filled it with sake, the jar would become drunk and fall down, spilling whatever was left of the drink all over the floor. I haven't been able to try, I don't want the jar to break or waste something as expensive as sake just for a test - though I've considered giving it some JW-Red to see if it has a taste for whiskey
- back on topic -

One consideration that I've had, and am still courting, is making the army's "niche" be one of punishing an enemy who relies too heavily on magic. Certain units (primarily those with Bushido) would be able to gain more dice whenever the enemy targets them with a spell. Then, each unit has a bound spell that it can cast using only dice generated in this way. Clans would be upgrades, representing which of the 4 Great Warrior Houses the clan is descended from, and grant an additional spell to the unit. The spells would probably be a damage/hex spell, and the clans would grant some kind of augment spell. Onmyoji on the other hand, would have a similar rule that allows them to pull dice from spells that are not targeted at a unit (enemy Augments, or spells like Comet). This way, if you start pounding on the army with magic, you are only fueling their return barrage.

Aside from the fact that this means they will either always dominate the magic phase, or will lose their magic phase entirely if the enemy refuses to cast - I can't figure out how to justify it in the fluff.
My initial thoughts were that the Samurai (who will probably get a name-change) wear armor that is made from mystical Bonsai-wood, which is as hard as steel and as light as leather, but retains some of the latent magical properties of Nippon. But why should Nippon be so lucky?
=The Daemons are magic resistant (and only magic resistant) because they are made of raw magic.
=The Dwarfs are built by the Old Ones specifically to resist magic, and therefore shut it down by generating tons of Dispel dice
=The Elves are magically superior because they were built (again, by the Old Ones) to be the best magic users in the world

I also want the Nippon army to be one of the more strategic armies in the game - not because of Detachment rules like the Empire, or the Order rules that I had intended to give them, but because they will require a lot of forethought by their generals. I want to provide the general with several valid choices for building an army, but also ensure that each unit must work in harmony with every other regiment on the table. The most obvious example of this will be the Taiko drums, which will most likely be the "must have" Rare choice for the army and can be fielded as 2for1 unit choices. They will have the current Orders gained by the Samurai Battle Tactics rule, and at the start of the turn the Nippon general chooses which order to play on each drum for that turn. To successfully drum out an order for 1 unit, you must roll a 4+ on a single D6. You may choose to make the order available to additional units, but each additional unit has a -1 modifier to the roll (affecting the maximum 3 units requires a roll of a 6, or the order is lost). If a drum plays the same order as another, it does not affect more units, but instead adds +1 to the roll. You could then affect a single unit of a 3+, or up to 7 units on a 6+. Units may only be affected by a single order.

[Kleffmeister]

I hope this thread is still active and relevant.


Stuff to include in your background. In the Beasts of Chaos army book there are a huge concentration of beastmen on the Islands of Nippon. Logically the area must be heavily corrupterd by chaos energy aswell, opening up both Beastmen, Daemons and Undead(Wayward strigoi lord in the mountains maybe?) as logical foes. DE and Chaos raiders is easy to work in aswell.
In the old High Elves army book there is a Tower/City/Colony, marked on the maps, in the southern islands in the Nippon area. You could use that either as an ally to the Nipponese against their common enemies. If the colony has a Hoeth contingent it could explain the evolution of the martial arts aswell. The other option is that the Nipponese still consider them as enemies since the sundering and wage war with the colony on a regular basis.


I personally have tried to differentiate Nippon away from the Established Cathay fluff. Even though it probably is'nt considered canon some Cathay fluff is confirmed in "Tamurkhan the throne of chaos", such as crossbows, animated stone constructs and elemental magics. Throw in some warrior monks and ancestral worship and we have a complete picture.


Nippon on the other hand, I have imagined alot more Buddhist oriented with themes such as striving to achieve a higher state of consciousness through meditation, philosophy and ofc combat. So regular Samurai should not be superior in stats compared to Empire swordsmen or Bretonnia KoR. Although when said Samurai get's more experineced and achieves higher consciousness during combat one can represent them akin to Grail knights in the last stages. Supernatural reflexes, perfect fluent moves etc yadda yadda. Much like GK this does not autoinclude heroes, just a precious few ascended.
Plus because of their wish to achive spritual alightenment they respect spirits beacuse that they obviously are higher elevated than them. Ofc does'nt this stop them from killing said spirits just beacuase they respect them. Nor does their ..religion(?) stop them from being warmongering, tyrannical bullies.
So i have imagined Nippon kinda High elf oriented with elite infantry of different degrees(excluding ashigaru), allied spirits and spiritual magic such as shadow, death and a unique lore.
With cathay more akin to a skavenlike horde army, with cheap infantry, monstrous infantry and maybe one or two elite units. PERHAPS ancestral ethereal units. Magic such as heaven, metal and fire.


And finally be very careful when you include mythological or historical creatures and themes in the warhammer world. Most fan made army books i have read seem to forget this and include things that
A: just dont fit with the fluff.
B: Things that are just stupid.
For instance if you want Onii as evil spirits/Daemons then fine. Although if you want to include a major Daemon invasion in the Nippon background then use the standard daemons, otherwise it just dose'nt make sense(as i said IMO).

Best of luck to your project and excuse my spelling/grammar.

[CaptainSarathai]

This is most definitely still an active thread, and I'm glad that you replied. That thing from Beasts of Chaos has raised some eyebrows. How old is that book? I've heard of Beastman populations in Nippon before, but I haven't really looked into Beastmen fluff that much. I hadn't really planned on including them. I have a contingency plan for how to add them into the fluff, but it would require some rewriting of the latter half of the story I've established.

I like your ideas, and I would have no problems seeing an armybook designed with that in mind. On several occasions I've though of completely throwing away everything ever established about "Nippon as Feudal Japan" and creating an entirely new culture that is only loosely based on the Japanese. There are a lot of problems with that though, and I think that this GW won't touch Nippon with a 10-foot pole.

When writing for something like Nippon, you're balancing 2 schools of thought, especially when dealing with a popularized culture like feudal Japan.
-- On the one hand, Warhammer Fantasy is not a historical game. Specific names like 'Ashigaru', 'Shogun', 'Daimyo', and 'Bushido' do not belong in Fantasy. If you want an accurate portrayal of a feudal Japanese army, play Warhammer: Ancient Battles. But if you do that, shouldn't you also remove 'Samurai'? Where do you draw the line? How do you say that Samurai is okay, but that Daimyo is just getting too far into the real history?

-- On the other hand, you have the players who would be outraged if you told them that there were no Samurai in Nippon. It's the whole reason that 99% of the people looking at the list want to play with this army. When you think of ancient japan, most people don't say "Shinto, Kabuki, Geisha," or remember any of their cultural standing, they always jump right to 'Samurai'. Now you're stuck in a hard place. If you say that Samurai are okay, then you have people asking where the Daimyo and Shogun are. If you include them, then you look like you're making a book which only glosses over the reality and now you have hardcore "Japanophiles" asking where the Ashigaru, Sohei, and Yokai are.

When I wrote the book, I analyzed both schools very closely. Finding a middle ground was hard, and I definitely leaned more towards the historical side of things. My reasoning has as much to do with the rules and models as it does with the fluff. Here were my thoughts on different flavors for the army:

1. As you said, a "Grey Knights" type of idea. The army was going to focus almost entirely on the Samurai, and they were going to be able to cast magic from their will power just like Grey Knights in 40k. They wouldn't have any mages or wizards, they'd use their units. This worked well, but then I hit a stumbling block - the whole book will just be variations of Samurai, and in the community right now there are really only 2 types of Samurai - those with Sashimono, and those without. So having 3+ levels of Samurai would be tough, unless I started just tacking on extra Sashimonos (these guys have no sashis, they're Core. These guys have 1 sashi, they're Special. The guys with 2 sashimono are Rare choices). Plus, I need a name for these guys. Samurai works once. I thought about Samurai, Hatamoto, and Kensai, but then we're getting into the history again. And what do we call their Lords and Heroes? You see, the naming is what makes this so difficult - when is it ok to use a name, and when isn't it?

2. Have them start off strong, and then fall. For a while I was working fiction for a game that someone else was developing. One of the major cultures was an Undead Samurai culture. The idea that I came up with was their culture advanced so fast that they actually killed their own creator god by not believing in him anymore (like a bad Santa Clause movie). The resulting cataclysm was so severe that almost the entire nation was wiped out, but they were killed so quickly and so violently that their souls didn't even realize that they were dead, so they just kept wandering around. I thought about doing something similar with this army - kind of like the Eldar in 40k they get so advanced that eventually their whole society just falls apart, overrun by Beastmen and Daemons and left as a mere shadow of their former selves.

3. Yokai, or Daemons? Another plan was to have them living harmoniously with Daemons. That alone almost got this idea thrown out. What sealed it though, is that the Daemons already have established fluff, and an armybook. Adding in Onii or Tengu would seem strange - why don't the DoC players get to use them? - and furthermore, there are already armies who worship chaos.

I wanted to build a new army that had it's own niche and didn't rip off any others from Fantasy or 40k. I realize that I've come more and more to rip off the Empire, and that really does bother me. I don't want an army with lots of elites like High Elves, because then that's what it will feel like - High Elves. I tried to keep a balance between Horde play (Ashigaru are about 5/6pts each) and Elite units (you can build an entire army out of 13pt Samurai if you wish) Remember that if a basic Samurai is no better than an Empire swordsman, they should only be about 8pts each, so it would still be a pretty number-intensive army.

[Kaleb Daark]

3. Yokai, or Daemons? Another plan was to have them living harmoniously with Daemons. That alone almost got this idea thrown out. What sealed it though, is that the Daemons already have established fluff, and an armybook. Adding in Onii or Tengu would seem strange - why don't the DoC players get to use them? - and furthermore, there are already armies who worship chaos.

Could the Onii not be Daemons but by another name? Their manifested look might be different as they are ultimately manifestations of an idea so in this respect the DoC player does have then just by another name. The tengu and other spirit beasts surely more along the lines of dryads in the wood elf books with some modification.

Don't know, just a thought on renaming and visually differentiating creatures with a current counterpart - hence justifying them within the current warhammer milleu.

[Kleffmeister]

Glad the input can do some good.
Beasts of chaos is from 6th edition it seems, and its a page in the fluff section named "Beastmen outside the old world". The adjoining map shows Beastmen concentration around the world with a very black stain on the largest Nippon island.
Although the text describes legends of weird tigermen in ind, birdmen in the southlands and so forth. I find this to dumb to even consider and has simply concluded that Gors(and the variants) are the few beastmen which has become a stable race. Thus being able to spread and populate the world , gaining dominace over the simple deviants and mutants.

When i said "Like" High elves it was'nt meant to be so literal. I merely meant a Hardhitting, disciplined but relatively brittle army with many elite units. They should still have peasant levies and the likes as far as i was thinking. I also Tend to be drawn to Bretonnia with less horses aswell. Alot of units that fit. Perhaps im contradicting my self here. Just my thoughts.

I can see your dilemma, but if you want to make a historical army feel free. There will ALWAYS be people who arent happy with something, and frankly it is'nt like there are'nt any other armies which are historically based. If anyone complains about it point out the empire and ask them to shut up. I have never heard anyone complaing about them. Besides if you make a historical army and call Daymios "Samurai lords" instead, it does'nt really change anything. A Greatsword is still a "Landsknecht" whatever GW calls them.

As Kaleb Daark already pointed out The Wood elves live side by side with their spirits and they are'nt Daemons. Nippon could easily be a similarly fabled land. The Difference between Daemons and spirits (a part from one being Evil as **** and the other being neural) can be that Spirits are semi physical with a strong connection to the realm of chaos. Efficiently being Daemons who has cemented a foothold in the physical world but lost their immortality in the process.

If you want to make something unique all the more respect if you succeed. With the risk of sounding pubescent but your idea did actually sound pretty awesome. It's just something that appeals to me when the Japanese martial art/honour/visiual style is combined with undead/cursed/spritual. Just be careful if you go that route. Just because they have fallen does'nt mean they are gonna kick the bucket. I think most players would agree that the whole "dwarves and Elves are ******" is very tiring. One the same subject if you want to make them unique, as long as you keep what makes them appealing, then people will be drawn to them. The main reason why i like high elves is because their culture remind me some of the samurai. Consider that it is the feeling i get from them and not the visual presentation i think you can make Nippon very unique as long as you keep the Japanese...soul?.

Lastly if you are gonna make them historical then they will very probably be very alike an existing army. TK are similar to
Vc, O&G=Beastmen, Empire = Bretonnia and why even mention the elves. As long as you make some units and rules stand out the fluff/theme will do the rest(hopefully).