Other trickster's shard

[Petrocco]

Have a quick question that has been bothering me, for you more experienced players.

I use the shard on my vampire lord in a horde of ghouls. Say he is fighting a unit of tzeench warriors and is in base contact with two models. My lord has 5 attacks ( plus red fury). Anyway thequestion is, say he hits and wounds all 5 times, which happens fairly often tbh, do all 5 wounds need to re-roll their ward save? or do I have him seperate two dice that will be rerolled and have him roll the other three normally?

Also it says in the BRB that models with multiple attacks can allocate their attacks however they wish. I would take this to mean he can attack the first two in base contact, then kill the next two after they move up and so on.... is this right?

[Blackheart]

1 - Successful ward saves are re-rolled, so he takes your five wounds and rolls them to see if his ward saves them. Any that fail are wounds. Any that are successful are re-rolled and if they fail on the second try they're wounds. I don't see why you would need to place any dice to the side, a wound is a wound.

2 - You're allocating your attacks to the unit so you don't need to state which models in said unit are being attacked unless they're heroes/lords. If you're just attacking a unit of Tzeentch warriors (for example) then you're just rolling away and wounds are allocated to the unit as a whole, regardless of how many warriors you're in base contact with.

If I'm mistaken I'll be a monkey's uncle.

[sirkently]

Blackheart is correct. All 5 wounds would count for re-rolling, and no hit allocation is required.

The tricky part comes with the models beside him. For them you would want to allocate an attack to the model in base contact with the lord. That way, they can benefit from the shard as well.

SirKently

[Petrocco]

Well that is what I thought, but the confusion for my opponent (and the guys working at GW that day) was that the lord is not in base contact with the whole unit and since he is attacking the unit as a whole and not just the two models in front of him, the shard does not benefit..... I didn't agree, but I let him have it.

What do you suggest I say next time if this were to come up again?

[sirkently]

You can only hit what you are in base contact with. Also, models will step up into base contact if you happen to kill the two that start in base contact. Also, point out the item says all models in base contact, and doesn't mention anything about units. They are putting there own interpretation on the item. Although I agree that it is a badly thought out item.

SirKently

[Blackheart]

Also, models will step up

This right here is the key, the ranks behind the two guys you just killed (lets say it's just two) step up so that they can attack you, well guess what? They're effectively in base contact with you as well since the guys in front of them just got their heads chopped off.

This is why you're not limited to how many guys you can wound in the first place other than of course the max number of wounds your target has. Step up and take my ax in your face.

[Petrocco]

See, when I said that models just step up, he says that they wouldn't step up until after all my attacks are done, meaning I kill 2 guys in base to base, and 3 that are not. This really doesn't make anyyyy sense to me, because how do you attack someone that is 5 feet away from you.... ugh. I wish I didn't feel I need this item or I would just switch it out, but its just too good ha.

[Lasso290391]

It can happen that a model causes more wounds than it has enemies in base contact. The excess casualties are removed as normal from the unit as a whole representing the attackers fighting over the fallen foes.

and also

Models can fight if they are in base contact with an enemy model when it is their chance to attack, even if the model's base only touch at the corners.

Those two rules together should be all you need to convince him.

[Petrocco]

About the fighting over the fallen foes, its not exactly descriptive of wether or not they are actually in base contact.

[sirkently]

For rules purposes, you are always in base contact with the unit as casualties are removed from the back. Therefore, your shard will always work.

SirKently