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Armies Best Phases Compendium

16K views 41 replies 19 participants last post by  Reiko 
#1 · (Edited)
I have an idea I will need community help on. This thread is meant to be a simple guide that will list the phases and the armies and rank them of how well/strong they are in that phase.

The ranking will be on the following scale.

Horrible
Poor
Average
Good
Great

I obviously don't play all the armies, but will start with Dwarfs. A community consensus may need to be taken on some phases for armies as some people are obviously inclined to disagree. After each army is done I will compile the ranking in an easy to read chart with the explanations being more of an appendix.

After placing the ranking a quick synopsis of each phase to explain why that army is good or bad at that phase.

DWARFS
Movement-Poor
Magic-Average
Shooting-Great
Combat-Good

Movement-Poor: Dwarfs lack any cavalry units except the Gyrocopter which is a rare unit. Additionally, the movement for dwarf is 3 inches, but they are stubborn and can march 6 even when near the enemy. However, they can still charge the same distance as any M4 unit with a good roll. While this is good, this is really not enough to merit any sort of maneuverability. Chances are you are going to be waiting for the enemy to come to you and will be receiving more charges than you are dishing out.

Magic-Average: While dwarfs don't have access to any magic lores they have the best Magic Resistance and ability to dispel in the game. Also, the Dwarfs have a vast array of runes which are treated as magic items that can greatly boost the effectiveness of the army. Lastly, the Anvil of Doom, a very powerful unit, though it can be hit or miss. In short, no magic offensive capability, but the best dispelling army in the game.

Shooting-Great:
The Dwarven army is one of two in the Warhammer world that has gunpowder weapons, the other being the Empire, the dwarfs loyal ally. The dwarfs have a large variety of War Machines and smaller ranged weapons. The dwarfs have the Organ Gun, the Cannon, the bolt thrower, the Stone Thrower, and Flame Cannon. In addition they have an improved hand gun which hits at a +1, S4, and is armor piercing. They also have quarrelers which wield crossbows. The Dwarven gunline is a very powerful formation that is highly effective against many armies.

Combat-Good: While Dwarves may not be quick or agile, they are definitely tough and heavily armored. Low initiative by most units means you will be striking last more often than not. Many dwarfs wield Great Weapons will deadly efficiency. Dwarfs Leadership is high, with the lowest in the army being a 9. Many dwarfs are immune to panic and or have fear or terror. This often means that then enemy is forced to kill every last dwarf in your unit, as they are difficult to break. Dwarfs have numerous special units that can cater to taking down any manner of foe, hammerers, Ironbreakers and Slayers. Dwarfs boast a fair number of Special Characters to compliment your army. In short, you are tough to kill and can dish it out, but your going to probably get hit first by the enemy.

In summary, the Dwarf army is best at shooting and combat, but lacks the flare magic can provide and the ability to maneuver around the enemy. Most likely you are going to shoot the enemy as he closes in on you, take the initial charge and then chop and bludgeon him to death beneath your axes and hammers.
 
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#2 ·
Quite nice, a rather handy little topic. I'd like to add to the dwarf movement however that while they might not outmaneouvre anyone on their own they're behind only 1 or 2 inch when it comes to charging. 3+2D6 isn't as different from 4+2D6. Also they do have many nifty deployment etc options to move: Strollaz rune ( march before turn 1 ), scouts in ranked up formation, miners and the anvils powers.
 
#3 ·
Great initiative bhadaway this will make it a lot easier for new players to choose an army, or for coming up with counter strategies against certain armies. I will be ranking Wood Elves and I will list the ranking again, so it is easier for people to find it.

The ranking will be on the following scale.

Horrible
Poor
Average
Good
Great

WOOD ELVES
Movement-Good
Magic-Average
Shooting-Good
Combat-Average

Movement-Good: While Wood Elves used to have a great movement phase, the fact is that the changes in overall gameplay has resulted in the units that used to provide the great movement phases are being phased out. Meaning that we have 2 units that are viable and can move well, one is Glade Guard, with the ability to move and shoot without penalties these are the best archer units in the game. The other one is Wild Riders, while they may be very vulnerable to shooting and magic, they pack a real punch in close combat and they ultilize the movement Wood Elves are so widely known for.

Magic-Average: While we don't have access to the ultimate offensive magic, we do have access to the lore of life and the lore of beasts, life being the preferred one, especially because of the lore ability, which allows us to heal our monstrous units and characters. This combined with a level 4 Spellweaver and the Wand of Wych Elm, which allows us to reroll any dispel attempt, provides Wood Elves with a decent magic defense, and combined with decent magic, the magic phase for Wood Elves is actually pretty balanced.

Shooting-Good: I'm sure People will disagree with this one. Wood Elves have the Glade Guard units, they have the ability to move and shoot without penalty combined with +1 strength for being in half range. which means they are wickedly awesome. The only thing the shooting of Wood Elves lack is the ability to shoot with more than strength 4, with all the monstrous infantry marching across the board these days, strength 4 just doesn't cut it anymore.

Combat-Average: Tree Kin... Enough said. Well Tree Kin might be a slow unit, but when they get into close combat they tear everything apart, elves as well as dwarfs, the great thing about Tree Kin is that they benefit from ranks unlike most other Wood Elves units. Other great close combat units are Wild Riders, these are great because of their maneuverability, the Tree Man, who is just awesome because of all his special rules, thunderstomp and his high strength, toughness and wounds characteristics. A good combo is Wardancers and Dryads working together, however this requires a great deal of planning and luck, the weakness of these units is the fact that they are skirmishers and therefore they don't benefit from steadfast, although they are some very good close combat units overall, and they can easily tear larger units apart, when multiple units attack together.

In summary, the Wood Elves have very few viable options when it comes to creation of army lists, however the lists that do work, work relatively well. And as you can see Wood Elves are above average in all categories, this is however due to the fact that I only took units worth taking into consideration.

On a side note, Wood Elves have very good units, however their price don't match their worth, almost every unit in the Wood Elves army is overpriced, the only exceptions I can think of would be Tree Kin and Glade Guard, and they are still in the steep end of units overall, they aren't overpriced, they are just expensive. And I myself was surprised to rate everything as average or above, I might just be overly optimistic about my little woodies, anyway people please comment and improve what I have begun.
 
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#4 ·
@The Bearded One-Good POint on the movement, upgraded from horrible to poor, LOL. "We dwarfs are but sprinters, very danerous over short ground!"
 
#5 · (Edited)
Bretonnia
Movement-Great
Magic-Average
Shooting-Average
Combat-Good

Movement-Great: Bretonnia is able to field highly mobile units. Considering they can take knights as core choices with barding and they do NOT suffer the -1 to movement, this gives them a M8 with a 2+ armor save. All their cavalry also have the swift stride ability. Additionally, Pegasus Knights, Flying MC, allow for a 20'' march. These units have very good charge as well. The basic foot soldier moves the average M4, but the ability to field lots of knights with barding and still utilize M8 is just invaluable. The only downside to movement would be trying to avoid difficult terrain with your cavalry.

Magic-Average: Bretonnia isn't particularly known for its magic. The core wizard (Damsel) only has two lores to choose from, Beast and Life. The Fey Enchantress can choose Beast, Life, and Heavens. The Magic phase for Bretonnia is more of a supplemental buff phase to help its knights. Bretonnian magic is a defensive weapon. The ability to heal knights is just invaluable, and the lore of beast provides some powerful buffs to all your knights as warhorses count as beast. In the end though, the limited lores doesn't allow magic to be a focal point of Bretonnia. Just remember that your magic phase is their to supplement your Knights and keep them alive until they get into close combat.

Shooting-Average: Bretonnian shooting is also average. With only two shooting units for the army, a very limited selection is available. You get peasants which are equipped with longbows. The rang on these is nice and they have a BS 3. One plus on the peasants is the ability to deploy stakes which count as obstacles. This helps them survive against enemy charges and can also absorb enemy cannon fire. If you can kill just one model and reduce your enemy rank bonus then the peasants have served their lords well. The lone war machine is the Trebuchet. This thrower can fling the small blast template an impressive 12''-60'." Chances are this is going to be in range of pretty much the entire enemy army. You can easily use this to take out enemy characters or large horde of weak infantry which are present greatly in 8th ed. Another plus is you can actually fire this weapon at units you cannot see, you will always scatter, but the distance is minus the crews BS. The downside of the trebuchet is the minimum range, if the enemy gets inside 12'' you cannot shoot at them. Overall, the shooting phase isn't really a key point for Bretonnia, something to supplement the rest of the army.

Combat-Good: The Brettonnian army relies on hard hitting cavalry charges to break his enemy. You will command an impressive variety of knights with great movement and armor saves, not to mention the ward save for praying! The cavalry is armed with a lance on the charge giving them S5 hits, which is going to drop your enemy armor save by 2. While they hit hard, your goal is to cause enough wounds to win the combat from combat resolution. Always take banners and try and charge flanks if possible. Remember that knights are still just men, with average toughness and initiative, so some armies out their will strike you first. Also watch out for steadfast and unbreakable units. Your goal is to cause the enemy to break and overrun if possible.

Onto the infantry. You will field mostly peasant men at arms. These units are not their to kill the enemy. Field in large hordes if possible and keep them near your knights so you can use their leadership. Often this will be your anvil and the knights will be your hammer. Remember that their standards do not count as Victory points, so no worries their. The other infantry unit is a little more "elite." The Battle Pilgrim and Grail Reliqaue. This units has stats that more closely resembles your "standard" infantry unit in other armies. This unit is Stubborn and has a good leadership of 8. Often this unit is a far more effective anvil than your peasants. You can horde this unit up to 30.

Your lords and heroes are also good. Remember you must have a general and a BSB, it is not a choice for you. You also get the famous Green Knight, an ethereal knight who doesn't "die," he simply returns to the ethereal realm. You have many vows, virtues and magic items that make you deadly in challenges. A good tactic is to take a lord or hero with he "Duelist" build and challenge your enemy's general. With the right build, our opponent cannot refuse the challenge and you can re-roll hits and wounds.

In summary the Britannia force is a fast moving hard hitting cavalry army. The army relies on its knights to break and overrun the enemy. Your shooting and magic phases are their to supplement your knights and help them win close combat. Your infantry units are fairly poor in combat so keep them in large groups and near your knights for boosted leadership. Remember to focus on maximizing the CR, attack flanks and use your infantry as bait or anvils and victory will be yours.
 
#7 ·
I agree, especially because two of the above armies are some of the less played, I'd really like some Dark elf/Chaos/Empire stats. And to the ones who consider writing something, you don't have to be a genius at playing the army you think about writing about, I am not very good at playing Wood Elves, I haven't played a Warhammer game in almost 6 months now.
 
#8 ·
Ok.

I will try this on the Greenskins


Movement - Average.
There are many different troop types to choose from, some of them being highly mobile. The wolf riders in particular are not only 9" move (providing some of the fastest chariots in the world) they also have fast cavalry, which makes them Vanguards at the start of battle.
they are NOT great or super however. Despite their fast cav and perhaps some flying Wyvern, any smart Big Boss knows that concentrating an army on those fellas is just plain useless. Our mobility is a bonus. A bonus to take out enemy weaklings and artillery. The mainstay of a Greenskin force will be M4 to M6 which is as average as it can get. The player can call a Waaagh! or cast some spells to speed up the army, but those bonusses are defeated by the Animosity rules and Stupidity (trolls and magic items) which have the ability to slow the Orcs down.
One could argue that "average " is not the right phrase though. I'd prefer the word 'random' instead. There are pump wagons, giant-/squighoppers, we can call a Waaagh, have magic movement, magicbanners that give random move and random moving fanatics. The speed of this army depends alot on the dice.

Magic - Good
Waaaaaagh! Need i say more? Allright, so our 2 lores are not them greatest lores in the Old World. But the Waaagh Spell is arguably the bestest of all dem spells evah! It's quite possible to go for a proper caster and there's not a whole big risk using many dice for the spell, our miscast table isnt all that bad compared to the rulebook's and shamans are meant to die anyway, nothing like giving them savage orc upgrade and making em die in battle.
Our bestest of magic strengths lies in magic defence. Staff of Sneaky Stealing and the Mork's spirit-Totem are very good items and rarely does a warlord leave home without one of these. A night goblin shaman is practically free anyway. Either we have a proper shaman or 2, or 3. Or we have a solid magic defence. In the magic phase we have little to fear.

Shooting - Good
Now this one really depends on the size of the battle we are playing, because our artillery is so cheap, in an average 2.000 points, the goblins get a Bucketload of shots to fire! most warmachines are just the basics, nothing fancy, so it's all about outnumbering the enemy. thats alot easier in small battles, where we can afford ALL the goods and the enemy cannot.
A big artillery line can be achieved easily, just imagine the stacks you can bring, 3 stone throwers, 6 bolt throwers and 2 doom divers adds up to a total of 580 pts... And thats only the beginning.
- I'll ignore the mean special character that belogns in a nasty gunline, because nobody plays with special characters anyway
Basic night goblins can bring bows for free, all they have to do is drop their no good for nothing little shields. A horde with 50 bows with 18" range can be put down in the core and voila! anything coming near he battlefield's centre will have to eat 35 arrows and some fanatics as a side dish (those count as shooting don't they? )
Even orc infantry can bring bows in large numbers. They may be twice the cost of their goblin brothers, theyre still cheaper than most archers in any army. Ok we're lousy shots. thats true. but numbers are what counts here, leave the skill to those pansy elves and stunties

Combat - average
The problem with Orcs and goblins is that they can't fight.. huh what? -Yeah, they cant! Which is a bit strange at first sight. I mean, any Big Boss worth it's salt will throw his troops forward trying to get his troops into combat ASAP, what would be the use of that if they cant fight?
The reasons why they're no good fighters is in 2 thingies. Low Weaponskill. 2 or 3 is the standard with the exceptional Squigs and elites like Black orcs being 4 :D and Low Initiative (2 mostly).

"So how come we wants em in combat anyway, Boss?"
Well for one its the numbers of troops. Statistics show that both goblins and Orcs are not going to kill a whole lot of guys when facing basic infantry of other armies. The big units are not going to break anything in turn 1.
What we need is a solid regiment to start the bashing and then have a good bunch of support coming in to finish the fight for them. A second regiment up their behind or a nice store of chariots giants boars whatever we got in store at the time anything will do, just throw it in and the clash is yours. And thats what makes em proper. swarm em and bash em, no fighting skill required!
 
#9 · (Edited)
High Elves!!!

Movement - Very Good
High Elf infantry moves at 5" and marches 10", its a good speed for human-sized infantry and can easily enough outmanouvre lots of opposing forces. High Elf cavalry moves at 9s/8s and again is faster than any cavalry barring Bretonnians and Dark Elves. There are a number of flying units available (three flying mounts and a single flying rare choice) and with Vanguard, Reavers are excellent light cavalry if a little fragile.


Magic - Great
The High Elves have access to all 8 lores and if the points allow, can field all of them, with a High Mage and with Teclis. They could potentially have 3 or 4 mages choosing spells from the same deck by virtue of Teclis knowing all spells in a lore, and the other mages choosing the spells or rolling randomly for them. I find the best combination of lores is Life for the lifebloom and defensive spells, High for the general all-round awesomeness and relative cheap-to-cast drain magic and curse of arrow attraction and Shadow - just to destroy those gunlines and keep mages out of harms way. Have you ever seen a Dwarf sweat so much as when you have Pit AND Dwellers in the the same list???

The toys High Elves have are great, they have some excellent talismans and arcana, but paradoxically apart from special characters, pretty poor weapons. I prefer the weapons in the rule book or the mundane greatsword more often than not.


Shooting - Poor
High Elves, despite that excellent BS of 4 throughout, pay for something that isn't used. Archers are over-costed, though are probably amongst the few missile troops capable of adequately defending themselves against many traditional back-line killers because of a good I and ASF. Repeaters are expensive - good damage output and felxibility but only 2 wounds each and whilst they are the best weapon we have for range, they aren't great compared to Great Cannon or stone throwers for damage potential. They were arguably Value for Points at around 75.

The only saving grace is the magic item missile weapons - Reaver bow and Bow of the Seafarer (despite being magical items and really should be above with magic items) are amongst the most devestating weapons available - especially in the hands of high BS High Elf characters.


Combat - Excellent
High initiative, ASF, extra rank for spears. The humble spear-elf is a tough proposition for ANY opponent, due to his 3 (or 4) mates backing him up. Despite these bonuses, and not even mentioning the elites, High Elves die in droves on the counter stroke. Above any army, Elves need to attack flanks and rear of enemy units to minimise the attacks back. ASF is a good crutch but against a goblin horde, you are guaranteed that 30 attacks are going to be making their way back to you...
The infantry elites are, in my opinion, the equivalent of Manny Pacquino. Sure they aren't the super-heavyweights of the Chaos and Blood Dragon cavalry, and they aren't as well armoured or numerous as Greatswords, Chaos Chosen or Black Orcs. However, coupled with that army wide ASF and great weapons, they will more than happily take down more than their PV of oppnents if facing the correct targets. Swordmasters should be engaging enemy elite infantry, WL vs enemy cavalry and monsters due to the very good S6, Phoenix guard to pin an opponent in place with very good chances of surviving the attentions of even a Great Fire Dragon, and even winning the combat. All three in unison are devestating, as long as you can protect them from the inevitable hail of missile fire that will be heading their way.

Elven cavalry again is good, but not in the same league as the Chaos Knights or Bretonnian Grail knights as they simply cannot stick out a combat after the first round. They will be chased off after round 1 by most infantry units as the damage potential is limited to charging.

Final, honourable mention to the most powerful non-demonic/non-magic induced unit in the game - the Star Dragon, which is T6, S7 and carries a S4 breath template
 
#10 ·
Great stuff Digger and Kithre, rep added.

Kithre, would you mind proof reading your article and fixing a few mispellings.

Thanks for your contributions!
 
#11 ·
Lizardmen!!!

Movement - Average
The heavy infantry moves 4, like a typical human. The skinks and beasts move 6, which provides for some tatical options. There is one unit of cavalry, and the flying terradons for faster flanking units. So overall, lizardmen will come in as average.


Magic - Great
Slann mage priests are one of the best casters in the game. An extra die with each spell cast. Can get the ability to know all the spells in any of the BRB lores. Some other nice disciplines which can make them incorporeal, let them reroll miscasts, regenerate, or cause terror. They can hide in the second rank of a temple guard unit, and start with 5 wounds. Skink priests only have access to heavens, but can ride the engine of the gods, which carries it own magical doom machine. They can also channel some slann spells for better range.

Cupped hands which transfer the affect of a miscast to an opposing wizard is a standard item for the slann. Access to a second dispel scroll type item, the cube of darkness is another defensive bonus item.


Shooting - Average
The standard skink blow pipe can put out a lot of poisoned attacks. The poisoned javelin attacks are also a bonus. But the short range makes the standard skink shooting poor. What pulls the lizardmen up to average are the salamanders. Shooting a flame template an artillery die of inches with a -3 to AS and an automatic panic check on any casualties, with the ability to march and shoot, makes these guys very good at attacking blocks of infantry. There is also one warmachine available, the mobile bolt thrower riding on a stegadon.



Combat - Average
The main combat troops, the saurus warriors, are S4/T4, but I1. Can put up a good fight against most opponents, but are not anything spectacular. Skink combat troops die in droves at T2, but they can bring along some Kroxigors to help deal out some combat pain. Large monsters took a hit in this edition, but the stegadons and carnosaurs still make an appearance from time to time.

Overall, the goal for lizardmen is to harry the opponent with a ton of darts, javelins, and fire breathers, get into combat with the main block troops and rely on magic to help win fights, and take out enemies that hang back. They can compete in most phases, but magic is where they shine.

SirKently
 
#12 ·
Great post Sir Kently. Thanks for your contribution. I must say I would argue almost that the MAgic Phase is excellent, they simply murdered me the other day. Caused to units of Knights errant to break, put his miscast on my damsel, which exploded and killed another 5 KotR and they broke. That extra die is really nasty, and the ability to channel thorugh other mages to extened range is really gruesome.

Though I don't play LIzardmen, I certainly dread the magic phase they have.
 
#14 ·
We need some of the Disorder Armies, or maybe they are too Disordered to think of tactics ;)

Maybe someone will prove me wrong.
 
#15 ·
Warriors of Chaos

I haven't been playing all that long, about 9 months, but these guys just blew me away and I haven't looked back since.

Movement- Average
Magic- Good
Shooting- Horrible
Combat- Great

Movement: Average
There may be some discussion on this because of the number of Movement 6-7 Special choices, but it seems to me that the primary strength of this army is in its title: Warriors of Chaos. As such, they often form the bulk of my force, and many other WoC armies I have seen, and so rank Average. They can be quick, if one tailors them to be so, but so can many others. Movement is nothing to special, so Average

Magic: Good
While WoC do have access to a goodly number of Spell Lores the ones that would benefit this army most, most prominently Life, cannot be chosen. WoC certainly is potent in the Magic phase; indeed, it can be devastating. But Warriors of Chaos is perfectly capable of playing as a non-magic heavy army and is a combat army with magic support rather than a magic army with combat support

Shooting: Horrible
Warriors of Chaos suffer in this phase less because they are actually bad at it as that there is almost no shooting phase to be had. The Marauder Horsemen hardly count as a ranged option, with a maximum range of 12" and low numbers, leaving just the very expensive Hellcannon. While it is pretty good at fulfilling the role of a warmachine, it is somewhat unreliable and is actually, in many ways, better off as a close combat monster rather than artillery. For those of you who are unfamiliar with it, don't even bother trying to send skirmishers to try and kill this thing, the best they can hope for is to bait it out of position. It is a beast and will eat just about anything you send it's way

Combat: Great
This is the phase that really every Warriors of Chaos army wins the game with. As a core choice a player can take one of the most resilient and offensively capable units in the game system. I have seen blocks of Warriors go toe to toe with the elite of the enemy armies, from Black Orcs to Sword Masters to Trolls... the lot. Just the other day I charged an Exalted Hero and the last three members of a unit of Tzeentchian Warriors into 20 Lothern Sea Guard in a tower, and slowly ground them down over 5 rounds of combat. Additionally, Chaos has some of the best Duelists in the game, and get progressively stronger after each and every one of them.

In short, Warriors of Chaos are arguably the best combat army in the game which is supported by powerful magic. What keeps this army balanced is its somewhat ponderous nature and almost complete lack of shooting. If they were faster OR had even a modicum of shooting, this army would be broken.
 
#16 ·
Tomb Kings

Movement: Average
Magic: Excellent
Shooting: Great
Combat: Average

Movement: Tomb Kings are a army of magic. Sure, we can only move 4" and not march, but with our magic we can march all day long. Also, our most popular special choice, the Tomb Scorpion is M7 and there always at least two of them in the army. Not to mention that with It Came From Below, it can start from anywhere on the table.

Magic: As Marnepup said, "Our magic is an avalanche of pebbles." All other armies out there can only have 12 power dice at a time. Other armies may have these gimmicks that let them replenish that pool, but we have the most "power dice" of all. With a Prince, King, Priest, High Priest, and a Casket of Souls (which is not uncommon for TK lists to have) we have 13 power dice + the 2d6 for just coming to the battle. Throw in a Ruby ring, the Banner of Undying Legion, and a Wizarding Hat, and there is no way an army can dispel everything we have.

That being said, we just have pebbles for spells. No one spell we have will cripple another army... Well, I have seen the Casket eat half the war machines, and a unit of knight of the inner circle in the first turn before... but that's why everyone saves dispel dice for it. ^^ Our magic is there to make sure we can compete in the other phases. Our magic is entirely supportive which is good, because outside of an average shooting phase, we suck.

Shooting: "So, your unit is long range, in a castle, skirmishers and are Waywatchers? That's like -5 to hit? I need 5's to hit." "Oh now you're in short range? I still need 5's to hit." That pretty much sums it up. We always hit on 5's no matter what. Which is a good thing. Tomb Kings are a magic and shooting army. We want other armies to stay away. That's why at far distances, we have the best archers around. Also, are magic lets us shoot twice a turn. So those 60 archers you're facing can pump out 120 arrows a turn. Those twin catapults? They can lob 4 bundles of skulls at you a turn. The fact that we have so many spells means that we are always doing at least something we want a turn and so that means you will be eating twice as many arrows and thrown skulls a turn.

Combat: Yes our archers have worse stats then a Skaven Slave and yes the heaviest armor on non characters is heavy armor on the Giant followed by light on the Tomb Guard. But our Tomb Guard have killing blow and Kings and Prince only need a great weapon to do fine in close combat. Every have a Giant crash into your flank our a scorpion take out your caster? Not fun is it?

Say we charge a unit with a Tomb Guard Unit ranked 6x3, then we get to make them attack in the magic phase. This means that before combat even begins, that unit is taking 12 Killing Blow attacks. Have them directed against the Character in the unit, and you have a good chance of picking them off before combat even begins. Also we have a banner where all the models in the unit get +1 to hit on the first round of combat. Thrown in a Prince of a King, and you have S6 or 7 attacks hitting on 2s. This combined with the fact that we can raise models means we can be in combat for a while.

Overall, if you can shut down the magic phase, then you have beaten a Tomb King army. TK rely on their magic; it's what actually makes them somewhat decent. If you can get close to them then you have also probably won. A unit of Tomb Guard can only do so much at a time. The only thing is, you have to get there first and with 120 arrows and 4 lobbed skulls a turn + the Casket... Good luck doing that.
 
#17 ·
You know, theres something missing in the list here, i can't put my finger on it, maybe something with the cost-to-power-balance

Cus when the tomb kings score
average, excellent, great, average,

while the lizardmen score
average, great, average, average

one might think we just said the tomb kings are way better then the lizards, i would think the opposite. I think the summaries of both the lizards and of the tomb kings is excellent, so there! Something's missing in the lists.

Any thoughts?
 
#18 ·
As far as combat goes, I'd say TK are distinctly... POOR. They have ONE resilient block, and all other units die in masses against STeadfast hordes. Even skellies who are more expensive than many far better combat troopers
 
#19 ·
I think the TK have to be somewhere above poor in combat. The fact that we can attack twice in a turn along with our great weapon characters have to make up for something. Although, if there's a combat that is not in our turn, that turns nasty fairly quickly. So I guess it'll be poor if it's the opponent's turn, and above poor if it's the TK's turn.
 
#22 ·
I'll give a go at the Skaven. Anyone feel free to correct me where i may be mis-judging (I hold much love for my little rats)

Movement- Good Rats are quick. 5+ movement is seen through out the army. Which is slightly above average of your normal humans, and on par with most Elves. There is no cavalry in the Skaven army, But a few of the units have 3D6 random movement. Two of the units also have the ability to tunnel, appearing behind enemy lines on turn two.

Magic- Great Only one spell need be said here. (Pause for effect) The Dreaded Thirteenth. Sure, it costs a lot to cast, but it also has the power to destroy entire units of troops, and if it wipes them out to a man, the entire unit is mutated into rats! Transforming an enemy unit into a brand new pack of Clanrats is something only the Skaven have the power of doing (As far as I know). The Grey Seer may not be a bloated toad (Slann), but freeling choosing between both the powerful Skaven lores, Ruin and Plague, he is a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield. He can also freely swap a spell he rolls for the Dreaded Thirteenth. Not only do the Skaven have the Grey Seer, but they also employ the Vermin Lord. A daemon that is a level four wizard, and by no means a slouch in combat.

Shooting- Average I've heard the stories of the Skaven gunlines and how scary they are. So why did I pick average? There are only a few units now that are worth their salt. We have some scary stuff. The Warp lighting cannon, Warpfire thrower, Plague mortar to name a few. But everything is move or fire save for the mortar, which severly cuts down on tactical uses. Plus, They all roll artilary die. They all have the chance of blowing up in your face. Even the jezzails! Which are extremly expensive for what they do. Sure we can destroy units with our power, but expect to see a few of our own die in the process. (Which makes them so much fun)

Combat- Good I had trouble placing this one. I suppose its somewhere in between, if anyone would like to clearify this feel free. I'll explain. All units in the army are basic Weapon Skill 3. Even the special choices. Stormvermin, at WS 4 (and are a core choice!) are the exception, as well as warlords and chieftains. The Skaven combat prowess doesnt come from skill with the blade, but their overwhelming numbers. They are so cheap that they can field numerous massive blocks, and will win the day through the steadfast rule and Combat res.

Thats how i came up with the good score in combat. But its not really their combat effectiveness, but their numbers. Since there isnt really a catagory that numbers falls under, I suppose this is where it comes into play.

Cheers.
 
#24 ·
ok as Digegr kindly poped to my profile and asked i'll try and whack otu the vampires :D

Vampire Counts

Movement this depends on a couple of factors
1. poor due to lack of marching unless you have a vampire with-in 6" or your in the generals IP Bubble
2. Average if your with in 6" of a vamp or 12" of general 9who must be a vamp anyway)
3. Great if you get Vanhels danse macbre off a couple of times (an 8" move / charge in magic phase)

Magic BLOODY AWESOME
1. all our characters apart from Wraithkings and one special are casters
Vampire Vs Necro. Necro you buy 1-3 spells for you get one for free and upto two more and you get to PICK the spell from IoN RD and Vans Danse these are normally IoN caddies for 1Die IoN spam
Vampire Count Level 1 can be upgraded to Level 2 best left at level one and given Forbiden Lore this makes him/her LOREMASTER of any lore in the BRB (except Life) or the Vampires lore and if you take a lore from BRB you still have IoN.
Vampire Lord Level two can be upgraded to Lv4 Optimal is Lv3 + Loremaster. MoTBA is usefull to a degree but not that great as the +2PD can only be used by that vampire adn the sheer wieght of channel rolls will generally bring us up a PD or two anyway.
Best Lores
if your playing combo Loremaster Light + Shadow = PURE .Drool 3 spells between these two lores really Shine
Shadow:- Okrims Mind razor =S10 for any unit in range and with in 12" of your general :D
Light:- Time Warp ASF +1A and Double movement untill your next magic phase, Speed of Light normal = WS/I 10 for one unit Powered version = 12" bubble of WS/I 10
Single Lore master dont bother with Lore of vamps necros coevr our most usefull spells.
Metal:- final Transmute, and the one for +1 to hit
Death:- Sun Bomber on flying mount
Beast:- Ethereal Monster, a bolt Thrower, Great buff spells


Shooting Erm Pure ..... doesnt exist

Combat
Our Core suffer here unless buffed in soem form or another and then still only average
Our Special's are average but not super GG being ok as thay have KB magic attacks
Our rares are Awesome but need support or they will lose on combat res
Heros can be average to good if geared and sued properly
Lords *Evil Grin* these guys are twisted and thats before you make them into a melee monster easliy capable of going Toe to Toe with anyotehr lord out there


some side notes
* Zombies are soo weak they should never be brought for Points always raise them if you feel the need. they will loose most combats no matter what you try :S However when raised to the Side / rear of an enemy unit and used in Combo with something harder hitting they can truely Shine a combo to try for Zombie Side/rear bash

Necro + Sceptre De noirot IoN+ RD CC+Loadstone ok he ways in at around 175points (approx army book not close to hand) he will Raise 10-12 zombies if succesfully cast and Add 6-11 more per Succesful IoN cast i used this combo in a game not so long ago got 7 for winds giving 6 dice to my dwarfoponet for DD 4 from Winds +1 as he stole a dice +1 for his only RS (only played 1250 pts)
i had this necro + 2 IoN caddie and a vamp lord Lv2 LM Beast. out of 4 channels i got 3 more Dice :D bringing me to 9 PD.

i cast RD on 2PD rolling up 9 +1 for a 5+cast :D he rolled 2DD but only got 6 :D double 2+2 for dwarf :D i got 11 on raise i then cast IoN 5 times on 1die 1 got dispelled 1 failed and 3 got through they raised another 22 zombies giving me a nice 33 strong zombie unit Ranked 5 wide by 7 deep only counting as 6 ranks though. these is quite scary when yu Danse them into the side of a unit removeing their rank bouns and therefore their steadfast. This is by far the best use of zombies i have found.

the Black Coach. this thing Should not be underestimated it has two use's
first ok its fairly weak for a chairot but it is a vampire so lets units within 6" march inc itself and should be used to keep your army moveing keep it behind your lines to give it hard cover.
Secondly its best use EATING MAGIC thsi is a double Edge sword as t hurts you as much as your oponent at the start of the magic phase after Winds and channel rolls are made ALL power dice are rolled any that roll a 6 are consumed by the coach making it stronger and stronger in the space of 2-3 magic phase's it is possible to have a Flying Ethereal Chariot that has KB.

Hope this helps
 
#25 ·
Draghkar

Good synopsis on the VC. Could you please format and rate yor post like the others.

I would like to get al the armies discussed and then possible submit to a mod for a sticky thread. This will make things easier in the long run.

Rep Added.
 
#26 ·
Any chance any palyers could post the Dark Elves, daemons, beasts, ogres and empire. I would like to get this all done, help form the community would be very appreciated.
 
#29 ·
I can help out here having played the new TK in tournaments.

Movement: Poor
Magic: Great
Shooting: Great
Combat: Average

What is interesting about TK is that everything really revolves around the magic phase, as such the magic phase cannot be classified as our best since it is used to support everything else. Shooting is a slight exception to this, however we still affect everything but catapults with our spells. No phase is excellent for Tomb Kings as to play them effectivley one must use all phases and all bonuses associated with them. Despite the fact that combat is 'average' in my analasys no-one's going to argue with 40+ str 5 ASF KB attacks at WS 6 from my Tomb Guard with a few augments cast on them and a King. However this requires both the King and the Augment...you see what I mean.

Movement:
I'll put it to you this way, to 'march' we requite our Lore signature spell and units to be within 12" of the caster. Whilst you will always have this spell unless you use Arkhan if you want to use faster units like Charriots then you will need to take the risk of boostng the spell up so that they are effected, or take another caster with Nehekhara. I am personally against this as I would rather a second Lore of Light caster to shore up the rest of my army's problems. So movement is poor as to take full advantage of it you have to limit your maneouverability.

Magic:
Not Excellent, we don't have the raw power of VC or the bonuses the Other Elves get, despite this our essential lore is brilliant at keeping us in the fight and our two secondary lores only help out. The problem is that the army requires us to use magic to sure it up, any other army would use their magic constructivley, Tomb Kings must use it reconstrictivley (quite literaly), you can't do much in the magic phase but it does make every other part of the game better for us.

Shooting:
We can pump out a lot of attacks that aren't accurate but are reliable and reworks the entire cover concept, making other armies have to play in a unique way to beat us in the shooting phase. We also have SSCs, which are great against Hordes that would otherwise threaten to overwhelm some of our units. Some players will also mention Bowshabti, however there is a mixed stance over them which hasn't quite yet been resolved.

Combat:
Average is the way to go, we have Skeletons, which suck alone and then Charriots, which DESTROY. As with the rest of the army our combat potential is based heavily off our magic phase. Sure, we get War/Necrosphinxes, but other people get similar monsters that don't have the toughness but aren't unstable.


I'll do Dark Elves some other time as well, really great job Reiko, this is a brilliant thread!
 
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#28 ·
Empire:
I've been playing with these guys for about 10 years now as a secondary army. They've never really fallen out of favor with me, no matter what army I'm favoring at the moment, Empire is always there in reserves.

Movement- Average
Magic - Average
Shooting - Great
Combat - Average

General- the Empire are your stock standard army upon which all the other armies have been based. They include all major unit types with the exception of Monsters/Monstrous/Warbeasts although you could make a case for the STank and Character Mounts. They also have access to just about every weapon in the game with the exception of Short Bows, Bows, and thrown weapons, and have access to all 8 lores of magic.

Movement - M4, it's the average for everyone, Elves are faster, Dwarfs are slower, but M4 is pretty standard. They have options for scouts, fast cavalry, cavalry, and standard infantry. The only thing slowing down an Empire army is its predilection for Stand-and-Shoot weaponry, the two most popular ranged options being the Crossbow or the Handgun. This does not keep the army from moving, but with Shooting as it's strongest phase by far, most Empire generals are hesitant to bring the fight to the enemy any faster than they have to, even if they aren't playing an explicit "gunline". This isn't to say that the Empire can't march it's army forward and get into combat as quickly as other races, it simply means they usually choose not to.

Magic - Just like their movement, the Empire magic phase is bone stock. They don't get any special rules for casting or dispelling, they don't have any racial spell like Invocation of Nehek or the Dark Elf ability to create magic dice, they're right down the center. They get all 8 lores, and they get their level added to casting attempts.
It could be argued that their Arcane Item selection is rather weak, although they do have access to some interesting bound items like the Casket of Sorcery, which removes an enemy spell from the game, and allows the bearer of the Casket to cast the spell one more time. They have a definite lack of offensive casting augments. What they do have however, are Warrior Priests. These characters are one of the 4 main character types of the Empire. Rather than the usual Fighter/Wizard lineup of most armies, they have Fighters, Wizards, and then Priests and Engineers. The Priests each add 1 or 2 dispel dice depending on if they're a Hero or Lord respectively. They also carry with them a selection of bound spells which focus primarily on buffing the enemy. They don't have access to Arcane items, but mixed with the Empire's limited selection of Dispel-based items, it is possible for an Empire army to effectively lock out an enemy magic phase.

The best lore for Empire players is either Life, or Shadows, which are probably the two best lores in the game right now thanks to their ability to either raise units, or play a cruel buff/debuff game with your enemy.

Shooting - this is the Empire's forte. They boast a full complement of black-powder warmachines, and some of the nastiest. They have standard Great Cannons, but also have Mortars which are essentially Stone Throwers with a different misfire chart. Atop this, they stack a Helstorm Rocket Battery, which is a 5" S5 AP template weapon that is in essence a bigger, more catastrophic mortar. They also have Hellblaster Volley Guns. These guns are best employed as a defense for their other warmachines, as much of their infantry-based shooting is move-or-fire and therefore can't turn to engage outflankers or fliers who get behind the lines. Tossing 3 artillery dice per turn, this gun can put forward up to 30 S4 (S5 at close range) armor piercing shots, and wipe small units off the map.
Their Infantry-based shooting is no less impressive, offering Pistols and Handguns for their characters and infantry, with Handgunners coming in at less than 10pts each. They also have Crossbows, a popular option for covering the range gap between the 24" handgun shot and a 30" Longbow or Crossbow shot. The Empire does have access to Longbows, but being priced the same as the other two weapons makes them very unpopular.
The Empire also has Fast Cavalry carrying both a Brace of Pistols, or Repeater Handguns. RHGs are 3x Multiple Shot handguns, and are carried on BS4 Outrider fast cavalry, making them a deadly weapon indeed. Other weapons include the Hochland Longrifle, a 30" range handgun with the Sniper rule, available to Engineers and most ranged champions, as well as the 'Granade Launching Blunderbuss' which is a Knight-busting special weapon. They have repeating versions of their pistols as well.

Combat - the Empire boasts an average WS3, S3, T3 across the board. They have high-average Leadership of 7-8 on most units, an Unbreakable unit, and a Stubborn unit in their ranks. Unfortunately, they are limited to Light Armor and Shields on all except their Greatweapon armed unit and Knights. Their Knights however do have Full Plate for a base save of 4+ before barding and other additions. Characters are also allowed Full Plate. Unfortunately, Empire have a slightly-above-average points cost thanks to their Detachment System. This is a unique trait of Empire regiments, where certain units are declared as "Parent Units", and can take up to two additional units as Detachments. These Detachments can be no larger than half the size of the parent, and cannot have upgrades. However, they get some unique rules. If a Parent Unit is charged, the detachment can declare a Stand-and-Shoot and does not suffer the -1 penalty for their To Hit rolls. Combat-oriented detachments can declare a 'Counter Charge', immediately making a charge against the enemy as soon as they come into contact with the parent, and they are explicitly allowed to hit the flank. For this reason, Empire focuses primarily on Static-Combat-Resolution rather than raw killing power. The enemy should be suitably softened by the ranged units before getting into combat, allowing the Detachment System to carry the day.

In hindsight, the Empire are a decent army, balanced, and very flexible army. While they don't offer a point-and-click solution for a beginning player (other than the Gunline, which cripples tactical growth), they are brutally effective in the hands of a veteran gamer.

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Daemons of Chaos
My close friend plays Daemons, although he rarely fields them thanks to the stigma they've garnered and the fact that he has Lizardmen- a top tier army that has no such reputation. I've thumbed through the book on numerous occasions, played against them several times in tournaments with my Elves, VC, and WoC, and helped him build his tournament army as well.

Movement - Good
Magic - Good
Shooting - Poor
Combat - Great

General - DoC have long been regarded the most broken army in WHFB, because of their 'good' standing in every phase, and the opportunity to make any of those phases into 'great' by simply unbalancing their list.

Movement - Most Daemons range somewhere between M4 and M5, and they have representatives of both Fast and Monstrous Cavalry. What really elevates them though is their selection of flying units, like Screamers, and Flying mounts or flying abilities for many characters. The "Flying Circus of Tzeetnch" was a popular build before the current book, and although this has been slightly corrected in the current edition, they are still able to build some incredibly fast moving and very dodgy armies, which when combined with their magic or combat abilities, can have lethal results.

Magic - Daemons can't typically access the core Lores. They have their own lores much in the same way as Warriors, depending upon their character choices. Tzeentchian casters are brutal, and Tzeentch also features a core unit which counts as a caster based on the current number of models in the unit (Pink Horrors). This means that Tzeentch is almost always starved for casting dice, and they have no end of Wizards to use them on. They have major bonuses to casting with their Tzeentchians. Khorne on the other hand has no dedicated casters or lore at all, but they get Magic Resistance instead. Combined with an army-wide Wardsave, this makes Khorne units nearly impervious to spells which cause wounds directly, although many players complain that it no longer helps against spells like Dwellers, the Dreaded Thirteenth, or Infernal Gateway, which kill models outright with no saves of any kind.

Shooting - Shooting in a DoC army is limited to more Tzeentchian units really, Flamers, and Screamers (sounds dirty right? I know). Flamers are similar to a Skaven Ratling Gun or Dwarf Organ gun, in that they fire a random number of shots into the enemy. These shots are close ranged, but they are high strength and can be devastating. The Flamers themselves are a skirmishing regiment, adding to their mobility. The Screamers on the other hand have a unique "shooting-like attack" where they do damage to units that they fly over. That's right- they fly. They're not particularly good in combat, but they can make mediocre warmachine hunters, but the real bonus is that damage they do on the flyover. Screamers aren't usually regarded as a powerful choice though these days, because of the shooting attack isn't particularly powerful and it's all they've got going for them.

Combat - Combat is where all Chaos armies excel. You have different abilities for each of the gods, with the exception of the Tzeentcians, whose Pink Horrors should be kept out of combat at all times. Slaanesh features ASF, and Ini5, making them deadly foes indeed, their S3 is threatening when mixed with Armor Piercing characters. Nurgle features Poisoned attacks and Regen, which although plagued (no pun meant) with low stats all around, is brutal when fielded in the hordes as they were intended to be. Khorne is the most typical combat-unit, given that it's their god's specialty. They feature lots of attacks, made at a reasonable S4, and feature Killing Blow as a perk.

A note about DoC Characters - Daemon character cannot access standard magic items, and get "powers" instead. These are provided in their armybook, and are all quite good, although they're based on the Chaos God the Daemon represents. Characters of all the non-tzeentch gods are lethal in combat, tzeentch of course being a beast in the magic phase. It is also important to understand that characters can only join units aligned with the gods they represent, so it's not uncommon to see an army which focuses on just one or maybe two gods. This isn't a problem, as they all have defenses against each phase of the game, even Khorne can defend itself somewhat during the magic phase.

-----------------

Dark Elves
I recently looked into buying up my friend's Dark Elves after using them as a pickup army for the past 2 years or so. They're a good army, I've always enjoyed them although I hate the look of the older models, and I already own HE. They're very similar, quite literally the "Evil Twin" of the High Elf army.

movement - good
magic - excellent
shooting - good
combat - good

general - like Daemons, the Dark Elves are considered a broken army for being good at just about whatever they put their minds to. They are very similar to High Elves, in fact, many of their units are exact mirrors of the High Elves, even moreso now that ASF provides a Hatred-like Reroll. Dark Elves have Hatred army-wide, and so they get this reroll on the first turn of each combat, whereas High Elves get the reroll on every turn, under the right conditions.

Movement - Like High Elves, they feature all of the basic movement types of Infantry, Cavalry, Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers etc, and are all M5. It should be noted that their Cold One Cavalry (between Silver Helms and Dragon Princes) is a bit slower thanks to a lower movement and Stupidity. The difference though is that Dark Elves have access to core fast cavalry, and it's probably the best fast-cav unit in the game thanks to its Repeater Crossbows and high leadership, making it easy for them to Flee! charges and subsequently Rally.

Magic - Dark Elf magic is brutal thanks to its ability to manipulate the Power Dice pool, and their lack of a 6-die cap when throwing spells. For this reason, Dark Elves can keep tossing forward a magical onslaught until their heads explode or they run out of targets. With an item that sacrifices friendly models for dice, and a racial spell that generates D3 additional dice at any time in the casting phase, they are able to turn 12 dice into a whole more. Their magic lore is pretty basic, on par with most of the other "Dark Lores" like Death and Shadows, (which they can also take), it's just the fact that they can toss so many spells that makes them such a threat.

Shooting - Repeater Crossbows. Yep, nasty weapons. S3, and in the hands of BS4-5 models with 2x Multiple Shots, Move-and-Fire, and slightly diminished range. These weapons are terrifying for lightly armored enemies, and are capable of laying down some hurt on heavy armored ones as well thanks to sheer weight of fire. They have the exact same Bolt Throwers as the High Elves, but at a 2-for-1 unit cost, so they tend to have twice as many if they'd like. It's uncommon to see many Bolt Throwers though, just because they compete for space with the Hyrda, which we'll get to in the next phase.

Combat - Like the elves, WS5, Ini5, S3, T3, and they swap ASF for Hatred. Lots of Light Armor, Heavy is the best they'll get. What makes them different is that they have the Hyrda, which is one of the best monsters in the game, and is the most under-priced, making it the clear choice for all your mayhem-inducing needs. A Monster and Handler with elevated toughness, 5 wounds, and a Regen save (on top of a decent Scaly Skin) this thing's a beast in CC. Wyches and Shades are also good, provided they make it to combat alive. Assassins are also downright hellish. Similar to most other races characters, but without all the leadership and BSB perks, Assassins can be equipped with all sorts of devilish items that make them excel at either butchering enemy RnF troops, or slicing through enemy characters with ease. There are several armies that rely so heavily on their Assassin's prowess, that the rest of the army is really just an Assassin delivery. The best(worst) part? Assassins hide in any Dark Elf unit, meaning that you never know where your opponent might have one lying in wait. You will also hear speak of the "Reverse Wardave" lord and how difficult he is to actually kill. While not intrinsically good at combat, the Dark Elf lord has the option of carrying a pendant which grants him a variable wardsave. Basically, he only needs to roll equal or under the Strength Value of the attack that killed him (6 always fails). Combine this with a model riding a very tough Dragon, and you see the problem: you want to send in monsters or high-strength models to deal with the Dragon and score easy wounds on the rider, but his Wardsave turns into a huge bonus for him.

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Well, there you go Reiko, knocked out 3 armies for you, hope this helps, and I hope the thread comes back around. If anyone wants to contest my points with any of these armies, feel free. My standard WoC or HE were already taken and explained quite well, so I figured I'd use my knowledge of the other armies to help fill in some gaps.
 
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