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Still don't have the new codex...
Seeing as how our new troops choices seem to be geared toward infantry at the exclusion of all else, how much is enough? Two squads of Thousand Sons seems like enough for most lists. Though MSU Death Guard may out due the AP3 bolter, two plasma guns on a five or six marine unit is pretty darn lethal, and more than cheap enough to warrant taking. Sonic blasters still look like they are on the short end of the stick. Too many points for such limited utility. World Eaters will probably require a transport to use. Then we come to our cheap raptors, a disgustingly low point cost for such hardy jump infantry. With the icon of Khorne they will surely destroy other MEQ units. Defilers now seem more reasonable, however the defilers role more than ever has become anti infantry.
Can anyone justify taking two defilers and and two units of thousand sons? This seems like a very expensive investment in anti infantry.
Will MSU death guard be used in conjunction with plasma chosen? Definitely a points friendly option that should work over marines and provide enough str 7 to hurt skimmer lists.
How many marines to vehicles do you plan on using in your 1500 point list? 1750? 1850? 2000?
40+ marines and 2 vehicles seems fairly survivable in a 1500 point environment.
Does anyone have any advice for how to shape an armies anti infantry choices?
How much(what percent) of your army do you expect to dedicate towards anti infantry?
Just a headsup bud, for troops choices, you need to have 10 men to take a second special weapon. Thousand sons are neat, but they are expensive for troops and they're almost useless in CC.
Honestly, in my opinion, the big winners in this book are basic chaos marines. You can move and rapid fire, or you can fire bolt pistols and charge in. I personally am going to be taking a bunch of these guys in rhinos and backing them up with tanks. Also, the icon of slaanesh gives + 1 initiative and barely costs more than 1 marine.
Chaos are more expensive this time around though. While the marines themselves are cheap, champions and their gear are pricey, and all the addons to the squad really add up.
Death guard can take 2 specials at all times... at least I thought they could. MSU-minimum size unit. Like 6 death guard with 2 plasmas or 5, tiny unit no champion, "relatively" cheap and effective.
I totaly aggree the regular chaos marine looks really really powerful for his points.
I am just testing the waters of the new chaos anti infantry meta game.
Thanks for the tips.
Amnar is absolutely right about the basic chaos marine. It's always been our strong man, but it's even more to the point now. In fact, I'm wondering if it's a little too powerful. Sonic blaster toting noise marines were very questionable in 3rd ed. Now, with the bolter/bolt pistol combo on basic marines, sonic blasters have further fallen away from the usable category. While the sonic blaster fills a slightly different role than the new chaos marine, the real problem lies in the fact that the basic chaos marine can pretty much fill any role with a high level of efficiency. In 3rd edition, we had to chose between range or c.c. (i.e., bolter or bolt pistol). This choice made the sonic blaster slightly more feasible, because it gave enormous advantage against swarm armies and was a decent support weapon for your c.c. marines. However, now that basic chaos marines come with both bolt weapons, it somewhat begs the question of the sonic blaster. Basic chaos marines can now sit back and fire at superior c.c. units or charge into c.c. against superior ranged units.
An entirely different problem exists for plague marines. Due to their expensive nature, armies fielding large quantities of plague marines inevitably lose their general bolter firepower. This isn't a problem for noise marines toting sonic blasters, because they are doubling or even tripling their number of shots per model (albeit, at the expense of a normal defense). Plague marine, conversely, sacrifice numbers (bolter shots) in favor of tremendous staying power. This certainly takes its tole when fighting swarm builds, such as Nids and Orks. Are plague marines really a third better than basic chaos marines, as their points indicate? I'm wondering....
Spambot kill tally. . .337
Plague marines backed up by Daemon princes with nurgles rot become quite effective at dealing with horde lists. Plus the staying power of plague marines is ridiculously fantastic .
Since Sonic Blasters are assault can't they fire them on the turn they charge for a total of 5 attacks on the charge per model? (2 sonic shots + 1 attack+ 1 for ccw +1 for charging)
That is correct. On the move, sonic blasters fire 2 shots. Then you could charge in for three other attacks, considering ccw, bolt pistol and the charge bonus. On the other hand, if you're not planning on moving with Noise Marines, those sonic blasters become heavy 3, thats three standing shots >.>. Not bad for that little tidbit of wargear.
Now, as for the general infantry idea of Chaos now, methinks the cult marines make for varied and specialized troops depending on who/what you are fighting. Consider this:
Plague Marines are excellent footsloggers. Feel no Pain mixed with high toughness makes them potent meatshields for soaking enemy firepower and laughing in their faces (provided the dice gods agree >.>). They also have Blight Grenades and can be equipped with 2 special weapons, which makes them pretty solid for "hold the line" stuff.
Khorne Berzerkers... well that's simple. Run in, chop up and move on. With furious charge and ccw/pistol/mark of khorne, you run thrashing in like a madman with high str. Worse, 'Zerkers get a Skull Champion now that can take a power weapon/power fist *and* an extra attack. Meaning that when charging, this angry dude can rack up five attacks with no armour saves to himself. Scary...
Thousand Sons are much like Plague Marines in the sense they do great at footslogging and soaking firepower. They are more shooty oriented and are slow moving, but inferno bolts and an invulnerable save makes up for those drawbacks. Even so, you get an extra sorcerer in every squad with the possibilty of slapping on bolt of change... Who can say meltagun with decent range? Sons can shoot up pretty much anything, and the sorcerer gets one almost assured kill every turn. Big drawback? Points!!!
Noise Marines are perhaps the most diversified and possibly most dangerous of the new cult marines. Like standard Chaos Space Marines, they field a variety of special/heavy weapon (1, lol, but worth it...) and potentially *all* Noise Marines can upgrade their bolter to something better. The sonic blasters are basically better storm bolters, the Doom Siren is a tweaked heavy flamer and the blastmaster... well that's just abuse. Blast-template krak missile shot with pinning? You've got to be kidding! Now how cheesy is that? Big problem, a fully-equipped Noise Marine squad can largely surpass the cost of similar units, passing the 300-point cap per squad very easily. Big investment, but oh so shooty. Plus they get increased initiative, not bad... >.>
Ok, my point in this lengthy description? Cult Marines are better used when following their purpose. Their somewhat high prices compared to other infantry make them incredible units to use, but also restrict their presence in some armies. Most can fill anti-infantry roles perfectly (well, all of them lol) and some can even dish out massive pain to vehicles, but they must be used wisely. Running Khorne Berzerkers into frenzied mobs of Tyranids isn't your best bet at survival. Using Thousand Sons against Inquisitors and Grey Knights with psycannons makes them easy targets. Investing heavily in Noise Marine gear on low point fights can seriously hamper down your fighting force. Slogging with Plague Marines against an assault-oriented army can be good, but those power weapons tear through their armour and feel no pain, making them big green sick stains.
Stick to Cult Marines when you want to design your force as "assaulty" or "shooty". Normal Chaos Space Marines are incredible themselves and cost way less. In games under 1500 points, they should be your mainstream infantry for diverse roles. Don't count out Havocs too. Even if Oblits are heavy support now, Havocs are Chaos Space Marines made more versatile and can bear heavy weapons galore at a decent price. I still use'em! LOL.
What do Khorne Berzerkers say to Necrons after chopping some of their bits off? "BLOOD FOR... Eh? Come on! You just take the fun out of it... Scream! Yell! Awww... not even a trace of guts..." *sniffles and kicks dirt*
"You can go far with a smile. You can go even further with a smile and a gun"
I find myself agreeing with you. In smaller games (<1500) Chaos Space Marines are the best troops available. A solid core of 20 or so marines makes for an amazing base, is fairly cheap, and you can give them cheap as hell transports that you don't HAVE to use, but can be used as Havoc Launchers... (I'm sorry, but a mobile weapon that costs a little bit more than 3 marines? And doesn't take up a slot? Count me in.)
My list that I'm thinking about right now is:
1 Chaos Sorceror 180
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Bolt of Change
2 Squads 10x CSMs 230 Each
+2 Plasma Guns
1 Squad 9x CSMs 200
1 Predator 150
+Heavy Bolter Sponsons
I'm just under 1,000 points. Oh well.
In a 1,500 point army, I'd probably add some Plague Marines (with Transports) and some Devastators.
Any ways, Everyone's mounted in Rhinos (Sorc. is with the short squad) everyone charges at the objective, sits on it while the enemy tries to figure out how to kill 40 marines and 5 vehicles. If they get close, open fire with botlers and bolt of change. If they stay back (read: Are Tau) I might have some problems. I might just have to disembark and rush in on foot, keeping the rhinos in sight only of taargets for havoc launcher.
Gareth is the person I try to impress when I convert and paint.
I think we are all at least thinking in the right track.
Cult marines out preform non-cult marines at what they are good at. They are the same or worse outside of there specializations.
510 points is alot of a 1500 point army to commit for 2 units. But, 2, 10 CSM squads with fists and rhinos and meltas is fairly solid. This unit excels at just about everything a mechanized unit can.
A unit of 8 thousand sons including sorcerer with doombolt is 14 points cheaper than the rhino squad. What makes the sons less of an option when compared to the rhino squads?
They don't have a transport.
Other than that, they are great.
Seems a little off topic, but should I use meltas in my squads instead of plasma guns?
Gareth is the person I try to impress when I convert and paint.