Tzeentch Marine Squad and their Aspiring Sorcerer - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Tzeentch Marine Squad and their Aspiring Sorcerer

    After having created a few low point armies using primarily Tzeentch marines, I've found that adding an aspiring sorcerer adds an inordinate cost hike to the squad. This may sound obvious (after all, it is). However, this same aspiring sorcerer is 30 more points than a generic chaos marine squad's aspiring champion with a fist (which is 40 points). Furthermore, basic marines are designed for both c.c. and range, which means the added champion has good synergy with the unit. Even a chaos marine squad that is intended to be kept at range benefits from an aspiring champion, since the entire unit has bolt pistols.

    Considering that an aspiring sorcerer with doombolt costs 70 points, I'm wondering if it would be a better investment to put these point elsewhere. After all, 3 aspiring sorcerers is enough to purchase an entire additional Tzeentch squad or something else.

    Here are a couple of options for troop choices (minus rhinos for simplicity). The first option resembles the standard Tzeentch unit. The second option follows the first, except without the aspiring sorcerers, which permits enough additional points for purchasing an additional unit:

    3 STANDARD TZEENTCH MARINE SQUADS
    8x Tzeentch marines w/ aspiring sorcerer (doombolt)- 254
    8x Tzeentch marines w/ aspiring sorcerer (doombolt)- 254
    8x Tzeentch marines w/ aspiring sorcerer (doombolt)- 254

    Total cost: 762


    ALTERNATIVE 3 TZEENTCH MARINES SQUADS WITHOUT ASPIRING SORCERERS
    8x Tzeentch marines- 184
    8x Tzeentch marines- 184
    8x Tzeentch marines- 184

    Total cost: 552 (210 points remaining)

    With these additional points, plus a tincy bit more, one could purchase the following:

    8x Raptor Squad with Glory Icon- 228 points
    *2x raptors with melta guns
    *1x a.c. with power fist

    or

    10x Chaos Marine Squad with Glory Icon- 230 points
    *2x plasma guns
    *1x a.c. with power fist


    Is it better to have aspiring sorcerers with doombolt and a force weapon, or an entire additional squad? That's the real question for me.

    Last edited by Rabbit; September 1st, 2007 at 00:38.
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  3. #2
    Librarian from Hell Andusciassus's Avatar
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    So, you can gain a potent unit by skipping the Sorcerer, but what do you lose?

    You'll have to use 1D6 for Slow and Purpousful, that can really take some of the edge from your three units. You'll also lose what? The equivalent of three rapid fire ranged bolters, with improved range (I assume as I'm not to familiar with the new codex).

    I think your TSs will lose quite some of their edge if you decide to use just the Sons, not to mention the loss of CC-ability.

  4. #3
    Pomogromogranite! Aether-Moose's Avatar
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    I think the choice is quite easy. Three models versus 8-10, 6 attacks versus 16-20, 9 shots versus anywhere between 10 and 20.
    Last edited by Aether-Moose; September 1st, 2007 at 00:47.
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  5. #4
    Now with STFU flames! Caluin's Avatar
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    Sorcerers are mandatory in 1K Sons squads...

    Edit -
    Or are you trying to prove the point that one should by pass taking 1K Sons squads in the first place? I don't quite follow...


  6. #5
    Member Solain's Avatar
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    I assume he's trying to make the arguement that the sorc is too expensive and to bypass Tsons altogether since as you stated its mandatory to take the sorceror. I honestly dont see the problem in the points put in the sorcerer. A powerfist is nice, but in my first few games the force weapon showed how invaluable it its by insta killing a chaplain and mephiston.

    Not to mention on averge my sorcerer used to be 100pts easy by himself in the old dex, theres just so many cool options you used to give him thralls, minor powers and demonic gifts.

  7. #6
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andusciassus View Post

    You'll have to use 1D6 for Slow and Purpousful, that can really take some of the edge from your three units. You'll also lose what? The equivalent of three rapid fire ranged bolters, with improved range (I assume as I'm not to familiar with the new codex).

    I think your TSs will lose quite some of their edge if you decide to use just the Sons, not to mention the loss of CC-ability.
    In order for the non-sorcerer squads to get anywhere, they would have to employ rhinos. This, at least, fixes the first problem you raised. In regards to losing 3 AP3 bolters with improved range, the presence of an additional squad for the points saved from the sorcerers is the compensatory factor.

    Your last comment is the main concern. However, given the fact that an 8 man Tzeentch unit with an aspiring sorcerer no longer has 2 wounds, these guys have become a little more fragile in c.c. against swarm armies and sheer number of attacks. Does the inclusion of a sorcerer honestly make up for this? Seriously asking.

    No doubt, the Tzeentch marines without a sorcerer lose some of their edge, but having an additional squad that can be used to aid against aggressive enemy c.c. units help make up for this factor.


    Caluin: I'm not saying that players should avoid Tzeentch marines. I thought my end question was fairly clear...maybe not.

    I'm just pointing out that having non-sorcerer Tzeetnch marine squads might be an option, due to the sorcerer's expensive nature, the lack of the power fist, and the lack of 2 wounds per models in the squad. Suddenly, Tzeentch marines are a whole lot worse in c.c.. I was hoping that taking non-sorcerer T.S. units would be feasible, especially with the points saved.

    In 3rd edition, a 9 man T.S. squad could absorb 10 genestealers, charging in with 30 rending attacks, with losing an average of 2.5 models to rending, and another 1.3 to regular attacks, bringing the total to 3.8. The T.S. marines would then retaliate, killing .70 genestealers from regular c.c. attacks and another 1.26, brining the total to 1.96

    In 4td edition, a 9 man T.s. squad could absorb 10 genestealers, charging in with 30 rending genestealer attacks, with losing an average of 2.5 models to rending, and another 2.5 to regular attacks, bringing the total to 6. The T.S. marines would then retaliate, killing .50 genestealers from regular c.c. attacks and another .75, brining the total to 1.25.

    Summary:
    3rd ed:
    Genestealers inflict- 3.8 wounds
    T.S. marines inflict- 2 wounds

    4th ed:
    Genestealers inflict- 5 wounds
    T.S. marines inflict- 1.25 wounds

    This doesn't include leadership tests.

    EDIT: Solain, I'm not yet convinced either way. Having very little experience with actually using Tzeentch marines, I wanted to get some opinions from experienced players that have fielded these guys and know more of the 'ins and outs'' It appears that no one likes the idea of having non-sorcerer T.S. squads, which is fine. That merely demonstrates that my idea is not likely a good one. That's the benefit of having this forum; you can mentally play test your quirky ideas.
    Last edited by Rabbit; September 1st, 2007 at 01:44.
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  8. #7
    Now with STFU flames! Caluin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
    I'm just pointing out that having non-sorcerer Tzeetnch marine squads might be an option, due to the sorcerer's expensive nature, the lack of the power fist, and the lack of 2 wounds per models in the squad.
    That's my point though - it's not an option. The Sorcerer is a mandatory upgrade to the squad. You can not have a 1K Sons squad without including the Sorcerer.

    Maybe I'm just confused... are we simply speculating the differences? Such as, creating House Rulings for units without their Sorcerers? I'm all for that discussion, I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. To me, it sounds like you're under the impression that the Sorcerer is optional.


  9. #8
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caluin View Post
    That's my point though - it's not an option. The Sorcerer is a mandatory upgrade to the squad. You can not have a 1K Sons squad without including the Sorcerer.

    Maybe I'm just confused... are we simply speculating the differences? Such as, creating House Rulings for units without their Sorcerers? I'm all for that discussion, I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. To me, it sounds like you're under the impression that the Sorcerer is optional.
    Touche` Master Caluin. I was indeed under the impression that sorcerers were optional. After having reread their entry, I withdrawal the discussion.

    You weren't the confused one .
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  10. #9
    I'm Back! Koss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
    Touche` Master Caluin. I was indeed under the impression that sorcerers were optional. After having reread their entry, I withdrawal the discussion.

    You weren't the confused one .
    a sorcerer is not an upgrade, but a member of the squad, and therefore it is not optional. The squad is 4-9 thosand sons and one aspiring sorcerer. Never does it say anything along the lines of 5-10 thosand sons; you may upgrade one to sorcerer for Xpts. You pay for 4 - 9 thosand sons and you pay for the sorcerer. IT IS MANDIATORY Rabbit, your wrong i'm right. Now i do a victory dance.:party:
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    for in strange aeons even death may die.

  11. #10
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kossolax_the_Foresworn View Post
    a sorcerer is not an upgrade, but a member of the squad, and therefore it is not optional. The squad is 4-9 thosand sons and one aspiring sorcerer. Never does it say anything along the lines of 5-10 thosand sons; you may upgrade one to sorcerer for Xpts. You pay for 4 - 9 thosand sons and you pay for the sorcerer. IT IS MANDIATORY Rabbit, your wrong i'm right. Now i do a victory dance.:party:
    Ah, but a victory dance in an empty dance hall, as I already conceded I was wrong. My turn to dance :party2:
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