Welcome to Librarium Online!
I have just spent thursday and today playtesting all 1k sons armies (well, troops anyway) and i think ive finally cracked it!!!!
So, here we go.
Bear in mind this guide details only one way of playing tzeentch, but its this way I find the best, i am putting this guide here to show other people how i play 1k sons, if you dont like it then try out your own styles unti l you find something you like. But this list gives yo ua very sophisticated feeling.
This guide is using all 1k sons (now known as TS) as troops unless mentioned. Now most people went OMG WE GET AP(You know it, i dont think i can tell you here though) BOLTERS!!!!! as soon as they read the new book. Yes we do. against small arms fire our survivability has gone poof!, but versus plasma/lascannons/starcannons etc it has gone up 50%. People are very fond of the Tzeentch rhino rush, which is a very good tactic, but it doesnt work well against hordes in my opinion. Anyway lets get onto the general tactics.
Versus shooty MEQ's a rhino rush army is fine, accompanied by a daemon prince and some plasma termies, these are exceptionally hard hitting. But what about when your facing a nid army with 200+ models. You just dont have enough bolter fire. This is where i started putting stuff together. My solution- Land Raiders.
Yeah thats right, Land raiders. these things are just what you need in protecting your small army. How so? i hear you say. Well. Say you have a 270ish point squad of nine TSs, well, say they are 12" away from 30 Orks, and its the orkish turn, ok you get charged and will kill maybe 5, while they will most likely kill your squad to a man. But say you had a land raider to move into. That raider just saved you 269 points, and can also kill the 5 orks. Its already a bonus!
Also i have found Tzeentch HQ's arent very effective, bar the daemon prince. Point for killing factor my tzeentch HQ's will get up to "Almost" their points value. Only the daemon prince has ever gone above.
My other used unit is Termies. this is how i think of it, 4 Grey Knights + justicar are the same points as 5 of our termies, which would you rather have? (say grey knights and get slapped). With 2 big tzeentchy squads for anti meq, 8 termies with plasmas for anti 2+ saves, 4 lascannons for anti tank, and a Daemon prince people think this army looks rock solid (at least my gaming group did) then i put it on the table. They laughed. In any incarnation the biggest model count i have ever had is 33.
Thats the 101 of Tzeentch these days, now for this:
Chaos Lord- I dont really like this guy to be honest, He is only really good if he is on a disc or has wings, and is equipped with a daemon weapon. Otherwise he doesnt really fit in at all. Overall not worth it, but can be a nice support unit. Or as an "Oh %#!" unit.
Sorcerer- I dont like these guys either, way too expensive for what they do. Sure, they may wipe out a whole MEQ squad in a turn... But its only MEQs they can make their points back with. Once again, needs a disc or wings.
Daemon Prince- Now we're getting somewhere, still doesnt really fit in though. He is more a tie'er up'er than anything else, in my army he is my "Oh %#!" unit, as he hides behind terrain and LR's until he is needed. I give him warptime and the IOT, but some shooty builds work fine too, its all down to preference.
Elites (im not including dreads here, they suck for the type of army i will be talking about, same with chosen and possessed.... hmm that only leaves one unit, and that is....)
Terminators- AWESOME!!!! truly these guys are the be all and end all of this type of army. i would get pwned if i didnt have these guys. At 1500 2 squads are almost a prerequisite, they are anti terminator, or 2+ save stuff rly. And also my anti horde, as they can wade through gaunts/conscripts etc. ALWAYS have them with a shooting weapon that can do 24" range or more, otherwise its just not worth it imo. Also, i usually dont mark mine.
Thousand Sons- The "Mainstay" of the force, as such they will get the longest explanation. Ok my TS go in my raiders, and jump out, maul squads and abuse LOS. I will say this now, in this army, they DONT always need to be in raiders. but if they are going to be in view of a decent nuber of potent weapons (i.e 5 plasmas) then they DO!!!!!
They only reason that i use 1k Sons is the move and fire capabilities, and the anti MEQ, which i would struggle against with just AP4 as my best (barring psykers). This is key to the strategy of the army. But it only works with lots of base terrain (i.e. the proper amount of terrain on the table).
The invulnerable is nice, but dont get carried away. I.e dont thin kyou can shrug off battle cannons etc, as ordnance (especially the AP2 variety) is probably the most dangerous thing to this army. But you can kill termies in combat, provided its a 5 man squad. But be prepared to lose most of your squad to do so.
Not yet Tested, i will add some when i have tested it.
Land Raider- An EXCELLENT vehicle, it rocks! I use mine to skirt around terrain, and jump up to within 12" of a squad and totally decimating it, but really there isnt much to say, other than it is an awesome transport
How the army works
Now for the important part, and i will quote from another source which uses the same general idea but for DH's
"Quoted from silent requiem on the Bolter and Chainsword"
"Water overview: Unlike the other elements, Water fights reactively, responding to the plan of the enemy. Whereas the other elements try to dominate a particular phase, and "inflict" their plan upon the enemy, Water has no plan other than to defeat the enemy's plan. Good Water armies use well rounded, generalist troops."
Heres where we are different, we have generalist UNITS not troops. And we arent quite as fast. I would add though, a 1k sons squad can take anythign thrown at it (within reason) and still put up a good fight, with force weps and a 4+ invulnerable we are bloody resilient.
The URL to that thread ( i strongly advise reading it too) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/i...owtopic=101214
The main thing about working this kind of army is LOS. Its one of the single most important things in 40k, but its significance quintuples(big words make me feel special) with this kind of army. If only one squad can see your raider, termies and TS squad, then its that squad that dies and so on. Also, if you see only one squad, then only one squad sees you, meaning you can pick off squads one at a time. This kind of tactic requires careful movement and planning, and took me about 5 games to get good at, but when it pays off, it pays off.
I will write more depending on the feedback i get from this thread, if you want me to go into tactics then tell me, but if people arent interested then fine. Cause i dont want to spend an hour or two writing a massive post for nothing. I will leave you with a sample list to chew on. Thats all for now folks.
5 Combi Plasmas
8 Thousand Sons
Personal Icon (i occasionly (VERY OCCASIONALY) deepstrike)
8 Thousand Sons
I'm not sure that getting 2 landraiders is a good idea. I think it would work better if the raiders were replaced with rhinos and shielded with possessed vindicator. Why did you choose doombolt over wind of chaos and gift of chaos? Have you considerd replacing a combi plasma gun with a heavy flamer, this can do alot of damage.
Have you realize that you only have four AP2 weapons? Two of which that cannot be shot if the vehicle moves more than 5" a turn. Against loyalist marines, their assault cannon termies will rip open your Landraiders from turn 2, leaving the rest of your armies shooting "regular" bolters that cant go through their thick armour. AP3 Bolters are great against MEQs, but they also have units which to counter your 1k sons. Marines have terminators, Necrons have WBB rolls, the rest of the armies either don't care about your AP3 or they have the number to absorb those AP3 shots and still don't care about it. To the other armies, your 1k Sons are just another regular marines that will fall to a fail 3+ armour save just the same... Without proper supports, 1K Sons will rarely win
U mean Deepstriking those ? Rather foolish thing to do, a DP with warptime will rip them to shreds before they can react. One asscanon volley is all u will get Give the lord a BoC and he is a 36" flying sniper that can charge afterwards inflicting some (usually 5 W) pain...Against loyalist marines, their assault cannon termies will rip open your Landraiders from turn 2,
Id say drop one LR and get a Defiler with 2xCCW, its also a nasty surprise for termis without hammers... nothing like watching a 250 point squad got torn to shreds without a chance f retaliation....
DP of Tzeetch is a nasty pice of work, give him a Doombolt/Warptime combo and he can kill 8SM in 1 turn
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. " - Nebiros
Sorry caluin, i misread the post and thought it said 4 hours ago ;?(was tired)
Anyway, @Nekochen, I will have to post how this army works then, ok then....
Yesterday i played 20 games against 5 different armies. Nids(fast combat) footslogging orks (slow combat) Space Marines(All rounder) Tau (fast shooty) and Imperial Guard (firepower stupid). The armies it was best against were Marines, then orks, then IG, then nids, then eldar.
You will work out why in this tactica.
i made up a better list, which i used for the 2nd half of the games. im not gonna post points but its 1499 points.
4 Combi Plasmas (debating adding a heavy flamer, but i would hardly be in range for it, what do you think)
4 Combi Plasmas (same situation with the flamer)
8 Thousand Sons
7 Thousand Sons
2x Land Raiders
Ok this is the list i ended up with, as i found it to be most effective. The whole army can either move up in a land raider, flies, or has a 2+ save.
Each unit has its own set way of being used in a list like this, and it depends what kind of army you are facing. So i will Enter it like this
And so on.
So here we go *breathes in*
Fast Combat- Versus fast combat armies the daemon prince became a hold up unit, if i wasnt going to be able to get a unit away in time he would race in and eat the offending unit. He was a very hand unit to have, and easily made up his points. Wings are essential for this guy, and i highly recommend warptime. The mark of tzeentch is also very handy, as it allows him to use warptime in the enemies turn. The 4+ invulnerable is also a lovely thing, as it allows him to run up and take on combat unit with power weaps (like termies) or a monster. The only thing i would say is that he cant take down wraithlords =P
Slow Combat- Against Slow combat armies (footsloggers) this guy is a counterattack unit, wherever somethign unexpected happens send him over to take it out. His role doesnt change very much from a fast combat army though.
All Rounders- Versus All rounders the daemon prince becomes an annoyance unit, running about taking out devastators, ordnance and the like. He can also tie up, or take down some nasty combat squads. Just make sure you use terrain to shield him. Not much to say here, he operates the same regardless of what army he is in.
Fast Shooty-These armies is what the daemon prince really shines against, as he can catch up on skimmers that want to shoot, and rip them to shreds (another reason i love warptime, averages 2 hits for me). He shouldnt destroy the stationary elements of fast armies, as these are usually *traps*, Also use him to deter people goign near isolated units if something goes wrong (against these armies it can, and being isolation is BAD!)
Slow Shooty- Massacre things!!!! No, seriously, winged monsters strike fear into the heart of these kind of armies, so try and get him stuck into stuff thats either in front of heavy weapons, or the heavy weapons themselves. Not much to say here though....
General Pointers- Try and be in close combat in turn 2, this guy CAN take skimmers if he has warptime, and is immune to instant death with a 4+ invulnerable, so he sails through things like termies (beware thunder hammers though). But otherwise i would say he is a pretty straightforward to use unit.
More to come later, i will complete this eventually
Nope, why would you EVER deepstrike a non-combat terminator? Yes, it would be foolish thing to do. When you have 2 assault cannons in your unit that can move 6" and fire up to 24".. effective 30" range, why would you want to deep strike unless you are playing on a basketball court. 8 Shots (per unit) that hits on 3+ and rend on 6's, by average you would have one 6 and all you need to roll is 2 to glance and 3+ to penetrate. I run 2 units of 5 terminators with 2 assault cannons each for anti-monstrous creature/tank for my space marine army. It's not very hard to destroy a Landraider, especially on a small scale game (sorry, by that I meant 1,500pt or less, Apocalypse changed my view!)... That's not including the Bright/Dark Lances from the Eldars/Deldars... Deldars can have 2 Dark Lances in each of their warrior unit that cost approx. 120pts of 10-men unit. I am still strongly against Landraiders in less than 2,000pts game... once you taken up Landraiders, your army becomes a one-trick pony, and once your opponent takes away your only trick, you pretty much fighting the rest of the battle on the needles.
@Archnomad: I like your list, for fun purposes it reminds me of the old Daemonhunter list I used to run, 2 Landraiders and 2 unit of GreyKnights plus stormtroopers in Rhinos. It really catches my opponent off-guard on the first game they play against this army, after that, the list never worked again :rofl Go figure..
By the way, I've e-mailed the TROLLs about how Bikers with Mark of Tzeetch should work, the answer was a YES, the invulnerable save does go up to 2+. At least now my local GW store would have to play it this way, despise the many staff that used to give different opinion on it.
Sorry I didnt even notice there is a URL within your post. I just took a look and apparently I've read that before.. it's those elemental theoryhammer stuff I used to find amusing. Anyways, each to their own, so I am going to stop commenting. Good effort! :happy: