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after looking at alot of the army lists it seems most people use IoCG on thier marine units. Now i know its the cheapest icon, but what about the others?
My mate has a tyranid army and we plan on playing quite a bit. does anyone have any opinions of marks that will be particulaly good or particulaly bad against tyranids?
As a very new player what kind of problems will i come up against from the tyranids?
All advice is welcome!
Edit: im refering to a 10man CSM squad
Well, Chaos glory means your men won't run... but given the fact that easily being outnumbered by nids and also losing CC won't make it really worth the effort IMO.
Slaanesh gives you increased initiative but pretty much anything of the nids lists can get at I5 or higher even. Pretty much the only stuff that doesn't have (or can't get) I5 is the Carnifex but at I4 you'd still go first. So Slaanesh would be ruled out as well because it's not really beneficial IMO
Khorne would grant additional attacks but given nids are relying on CC for most part and strike at higher Initiative I doubt you'd get a bang for your buck here. If you have the possibility to strike back. It'll be up to additional 20 attacks at S4. (depending on marine unit size) but that's only if you get the chance.
Nurgle makes resilient marines. Against nids it's not that bad as most have S4 or less (but can upgrade +1S). Making you take wounds on 5+ (or 1/3 of the time statistically) If his models have upgrades they're most likely on S5 which is a 4+ even.
Tzeentch is surely nice to have against rending attacks for one. Opposed to nurgle icons rending attacks auto-kill unless you've got a invul save like tzeentch gives.
My best bet would be to go with a defensive upgrade like Tzeentch or Nurgle. Both have their pro. The invulnerable save is pretty much only good against rending stuff which comes from rending claws in as a result can only be given to Genestealers, broodlords, Tyrants, Carnifexes, Raveners, Lictors & Warriors. From all of those only stealers are troops, so others won't be packed as much.
I'd go for Nurgle as they need better rolls to inflict wounds. But even better, Plague marines... IMO. They have T5, have feel no pain and don't give nids the additional attack on the charge which they most of the time will get due to charging. They do have I3, but given you do strike after the nids that's no issue I guess.
Some other advice on nids. Stand and shoot at all costs. They need to come to you, close combat will happen but make sure you thin out their ranks a lot. Here's a slight hint, do assault when they're in cover. They lose the advantage of striking first. Flamers do wonders, as do other template weapons. Many smaller shots work wonders against nids. Unless of course your friend runs a nidzilla list (loads of carni's) if that is the case i'd run lots of big guns (lascannons, plasmaguns).
cheers for all that input chaoschrist! very helpfu!
going back to the IoCG, am i likly to be having to take moral checks often and will i have trouble passing them?
i like the idea of the mark of nurgle - but wow thats expensive ;o i wonder if i can support the cost in low points games hmm..
as for a slight tangent on tactics. i like the idea of flamers, i will be fielding them as a 10 man squad so i can take 2 flamers (if i have got that right) and they are cheap however i wonder, are flamers the best choice against nids? i would have to be dangerously close to them to be able to fire it.
whats a good option for weapon upgrades for the squad against nids in peoples opinions.
and at the risk of asking too many questions: are power fists any use against nids? or should i go power weapons all the way on my aspiring champions?
It really depends on what type of Nid army your opponent uses. If he uses the 8 MC list with plenty of Dakka fexes I'd recommend using the Mark of Nurgle to improve your chance to not take a save because your opponent will be rolling a lot of dice. A better option might be a few squad of Plague Marines. They are more expensive but that 4++ from the FNP will be mighty useful. Cult marines are also useful because fearless will prevent them from running away from the silly Zoanthrope Psychic Choir if your friend uses that tactic.
On the other side, if he is taking a genestealer CC heavy list then MoT is your friend. Nothing will ruin his day like everyone having a 5+ invulnerable and hidden power fists. This can be very expensive though and the best thing you can do is don't put a lot of forests in the middle that he can hide behind and shoot shoot shoot.
And to answer your last question, you want power fists against nids. They will beat you in initiative in everything CC oriented except for like gaunts. With a fist you can take a beating with your ablative wound marines and still hope to get off a few S8 attacks. Also, you might want to have a few sorcerers because Force Weapons will kill outright any tyranid. This is different than instant death and is worded as such on page 46 of the BGB.
My last bit of advice is always measure and make sure his troops are in synapse range if he is using those benefits. Many times I will forget about it and assume my opponent is taking check of the situation but in the end this will really screw you over.
Again thanks for the great advice!!
we are both quite new so i think he has a broodlord, tyranids and termagants. so your second paragraph is particulaly interesting!
so if i understand correctly, MoT will give my my marines a +5 inv sv which i will make use of when those genestealers roll a 6 to hit and take me out? of the very little i have played this does sound appealing (especially with those genestealers charging into assult - 3 attacks!)
Thanks for the tip on powerfists!, i guess i need to strap one to my aspiring champion!
i currently have
1 khorne lord
i guess idealy i would need some more 'shooty' units intead of the zekers for fighting tyranids, but i guess the blood bath between them and the genestealers will be at least amusing to watch
Well, Chaos glory let's you hold ground pretty much but it's hard to roll after modifiers have been applied. And given nids is a horde army they'll easily outnumber you. So you might end up rolling Ld 9 - a 3:1 outnumbered roll which is 6 on 2d6. You get your re-roll but it's hard luck, heh.
Icon of nurgle, well... it is quite the expensive thing, not without any cause though. I mean; T5 is awesome. The price of 10 plague marines is just as much as 12 marines w/ IoN. And six men Nurgle squads are cheaper then those w/ Icon. However, like I said before; blight grenades give the nids no additional charge on the attack and that's what might come in handy. And yeah, they're fearless so no re-rolls and running marines.
EcchuBlessu hit the nail on the head when he said that a 5+ save (or even 4+ w/ thousand sons; which also render even his armor upgrade useless with their inferno bolts) And of course, force weapons can kill outright.
Running twin flamers is quite te fun against nids I found out. I run a LaTD army w/ a 30 man mutant squad which needs to get into Close combat because they don't have guns. However, 2 of them also have a flamer. Genestealers in cover, shooting flamers, killing 3 out of 8 stealers before I hit combat. They need to get close... about 8 inches. Ideal range is somewhere between 4 and 7 (that's where the flamer template is widest, heh)
It is true that you will lose practically every initiative contest w/ nids. So fists are the way to go. Just look out for carnifexes, as they hit at the same I and might have more attacks and not to mention more wounds.
Some fun when coming into close combat would be to use gift of chaos and cause some more havoc in the nids lines. Have a sorcerer and give him Gift of Chaos turning an occaisonal genestealer into a spawn fighting on your side. With D6 S5 attacks it'll surely do something.
And yeah.. keep track of synapse range. Some people will forget, make sure you remember your friend
Chaoschrist - I edited your post a little.
Be carefull of giving rules out directly
But, a great great post, thanks for helping.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
Pretty much, run bolter heavy lists and stay stationary, and remember ultra grit, and you should crush him. His numbers will be no match for heavy fire in many turns, and by the time he does get up to your lines, he won't have the numbers to deal with your basic troops.
As for bugs going before any sort of marines, the only troops that can get above I4 are genestealers(duh), and Hormagaunts, but are not worth the points to be marine killers(they cost more than marines and have a 6+ save! Is that truly worth it?). Warriors can get I5, but usually only if they are close combat oriented, and warriors get hosed heavy bolter fire, or even normal bolters. Tyrants and their guard have I5 (and I6 for the tyrant if points spent), but aren't really recommended to in cc(if you're not bugs...). Lictors and raveners are both above initiative 6 and 5 (respectively), but again, go down horribly against fire. As for Lictors and jumping out of cover, flamers are good toasters...
Overall, all the specialist units have higher initiative, but were meant for combat, so, counter tactic is simple: stay out of cc.
Best tactic against bugs: SHOOT, SHOOT, and more SHOOT.
Have fun popping lots and lots of bugs!
Thanks for your insight! its greatly appreciated!
he does indeed have a broodlord with genestealer retinue! so i guess my question to you is, tzeentch or nurgle?
im guessing tzeentch?
as for staying out of cc i have a khorne lord with the demon weapon 2 hand axe and a squad of zerkers clearly not ideal for nid fighting force...how would you play them? i was going to field 6 or 8 and stick them with the lord in a rhino fyi. what should be thier target/plan?
thanks again for the many replys! its going a long way to helping me get a foundation for my army
We all agree that Slaanesh isnt going to be the best icon to carry around but might i sugest since most tyranid armies rely on numbers you take a unit of 8-10 noise marines and give them all sonic blasters. if they stay still 8 will give you 24 bolter equivlent shots and 30 if you take a full 10. Also consider taking 2 difilers or 2 vindicators for the large blast.