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Granted, I'm fairly new to 40k, but in all my games with Chaos (4th ed. course), my Chaos Lord has never seemed to do as well as the Daemon Prince. Sure, he has the IC rules, but even then he never seems to get his points back. He'll get maybe two kills, then gets tied up and charged by other troops. Or he'll win the assault, then get shot up. My Lord has been ID'd by Meltas, Champions with Powerfists, and even dies in assaults against Obliterators in Chaos vs. Chaos, despite being teamed up with Raptors.
- The Daemon Prince has soaked up fire from entire 1000 pts of shooting concentrated on him
- Torn through Dreadnoughts and Vehicles in one hit...repeatedly
- Proceeded to rip, single-handedly and alone, through 750 pts worth of troops
- Flies AND casts spells CHEAPER than a tooled up MoT Lord)
- Shrugs of high strength weapons, so it doesn't really need to hide behind Vehicles all the time
- Guarantees onslaught with Warptime (I'm not getting into Lash)
Overall, the Daemon Prince has just seemed more versatile...I mean it's not really hard to get him in cover to avoid shots anyway. The Chaos Lord just seems too fragile, yet can be more expensive than the Daemon Prince....
My typical Lord is fitted with a Jump Pack and Lightning Claws, sometimes a Personal Icon for Deep-Strike unit support. I keep him un-marked since I play(ed) Night Lords, or what's left of them. He's meant for anti-infantry, but he doesn't seem good at that task either, being at S against MEQs...normally dying from a powerfist. 1/6 of not attacking with a Daemon Weapon doesn't seem worth it either. In a CC of a Chaos Lord vs. Daemon Prince of equals pts, DP wins every time, even with the Chaos Lord charging & CSM support.
So...I guess I should've said this first, but what situations are Chaos Lords more useful over a Daemon Prince? I never use marks, so what strategies exist for me? I read a tactica by ironangel, but most Lord setups come with marks & Daemon weapons. Lords in Terminator armor seem too slow to get into assault, and guaranteed to fail the INV save against ID weapons.
But even with Marks, what strategies are used? In terms of deployment, selecting targets to assault, supporting other units, troops to join, etc...
Last edited by Karmoon; October 26th, 2007 at 21:04.
People have different playing styles. THis is a truth, and a good thing for our hobby!
If you feel more comfy with using Daemon princes then by all means, use them.
Personally, I've found my Lord to be extremely useful, but I either combo lots of attacks in with the MoK or I go for the daemon weapons.
I've found that as it's just a game, it adds quite a bit of flavour to the game when you give yourself a wound, and lords can be ferociously destructive when they roll a good 6 too!
plus.. you complained about the standard S of a Lord.. which is something I totally understand. And it's why I like the undivided daemon weapon so much.
by marking the lord and taking the daemon weapon, you start dedicating him to a specific purpose eg:
Slaanesh - anti character
Nurgle - anti tough monster
Tzeentch - shooty anti marine
Khorne - masses of attacks
The other thing is.. you defintiely need to know what your Lord can deal with and what he can't deal with.
So.. assaulting a squad with a powerfist in it is always a recipe for disaster. Unless your Lord is assaulting the squad from the opposite direction the fist is in:
F M M M M M L
F - fist champ/searg
M - Marine
L - Lord
This is a good way to make sure the first champ can't attack back. In this situation, your lord will probably be able to kill everything in his kill zone, and even if he fails to master his weapon, he's not gonna die from 3 marines attacking him.
Positioning in CC is a very important factor of 40K.
Of course, supporting units is a massively important factor in 40K, especially in assault, so make sure your lord isn't left alone for too long.. because, next turn that fist champ is gonna mosh in and then really hurt you.
Also.. if you lord IS cheap.. which he should be (140 points ish?) don't worry about throwing him away in favour of your raptors. Your raptors cost more, don't die as easy and can claim objectives and other things much easier.
Also also. .using IC rules is vital in making sure you don't get shot by a melta gun/las cannon.
Simply make sure, he's never the nearest model to the enemy, and you'll be fine.
Keep on trucking.
TRUCKING FOR CHAOS!
Daemon Princes have one major flaw to their make-up; Monsterous Creature. Sure you can surf behind cover but 90% of the time that'll either slow him down or there won't be enough cover to hide behind. Having to move ahead/left instead of just ahead can waste valuable turns in the game where he's just not making any use of his abilities. In a perfect world you'll start 17" away from the enemy and be able to charge him the first turn not having to worry about it whatsoever. We're in a world were Iraqis still kill Marines and Bin Laden is hiding in a cave; far from perfect.
Last edited by Moozie; October 26th, 2007 at 21:42.
Chaos - 55,000+ points
Tyranids - 15,000+ points
Necrons - 6000 points
The other issue is that, considering how Minion arms his lord, there is no way near enough attacks to clear the Lord's kill zone.
The lord has 5 attacks on the charge (with the reroll for wounds). I don't care about the maths, that's generally not enough to empty the kill zone unless you're very lucky.
The whole point is just to be aware of where fists are and how they operate. If you understand the squad mechanic, then you can turn it around and neuter the enemy powerfists and place your models in such a place that the enemy must remove expensive troopers.
You can therefore get more mileage out of a Lord.
Just remember.. while the daemon prince IS an army by himself... the Lord is part of an army.
Moozie does, however mention a good point with the clearing of the Lord's combat zone.. and the only weapon which really gives the Lord a chance to do this is... yep.. the daemon weapons.
or.. perhaps a sorceror with warp time...
If you play with an offensive close combat list then your Daemon Prince will almost always be better than the Chaos Lord. He's got a Better WS, S, T and a greater number of attacks, he also have all those special rules that help him survive. Personally I think the Daemon Prince die too easily for what he is and that the fact that he's a monstrous creature makes hime a huge target for heavy weaponry.
The Chaos Lord is better fitted for another kind of list, like a shooting list or a defensive list. He is best used as a counter charge unit to protect heavy squad weapons and while he wait he can use his really good BS, since he can take combi weapons... and yes the fact that he can take a Daemon Weapon put him apart from the Daemon Prince. Give him wings and he can be anywhere on your line in a short time to help out flanked units.
Everyone seems to gear themselves to be the attacker but Chaos can make really strong defensive armies. A Chaos Lord is better suited for those list than a Daemon Prince IMHO. They both have their uses.
Great summary Thyr
When they are both inside a squad, the odds that a DP will die are almost the same since he's a monstruous creature but the chances of survival of the Sorceror are greatly increased. The Chaos Sorceror and the Chaos Lord are both team players that will increase greatly the power of a squad.
I believe that a 2000 pts army should have 2 HQ's anyway, 1 Chaos Lord or Chaos Sorceror and 1 Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon, they complete each others quite nicely.
If your lord got shot at with anything at all you made a mistake, as he's untargetable unless he's the closest target, and you shouldn't let that happen, just watch for it in future games.My Lord has been ID'd by Meltas???? How many models is this lord planning to get into contact with? If he's only in base contact with 2 then thats all he needs to kill, as you need to be within 2" of a model in base contact with the lord at your initiative step(which will be lower than the lords) to attack the lord at all. With 5 attacks at the lords high WS and with LC's i sure hope he's capable of dropping two marines, hell he should be able to do three a lot of the time. Rarely is he going to be in base with more than 3 other models in the first round of an assault. Not only that, but he should be with a squad of raptors who could also help clear models from base contact with him as they to go before any powerfists(and even normal marines if the have MoS).The other issue is that, considering how Minion arms his lord, there is no way near enough attacks to clear the Lord's kill zone.
Now don't get me wrong, DP's are fantastic units and certainly have their place but really if your utilizing a Lord properly they are great(and i would go so far as to say better than the DP) units. Really I would suggest that this particular lord get himself a mark for some extra hitting power but even as he is he shouldn't be as bad as he's apparently been for minion.
And honestly, Minions DP is either up against terrible players or has had a lot of luck on his side to be as effective as he has too.
Nevermore Chapter: 6200 pts; 97/49/11; Longest Streak: 9 Wins/4 Losses; Nearing Completion
You know there are a lot of really good points being made here. I tend to think somewhat with Thyr, I tend to have a Sorcerer and a Daemon Prince when I get near the 2000 mark, just because it's a whole lot of fun. :happy:
But this discussion really makes me want to start a thread on HQ use for Chaos, and by that I mean actual movement and placement - I hate the IC rules, they never seem to make sense to me.
"If you can wait til I get home, then I swear we can make this last."