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I've played a couple of game with the new codex and I happen to lose more often than before... At first, I thought this was due to the need to adapt to the new codex. Now, i firmly believe it's due to Aspiring Champions.
With the third edion codex, our AC didn't cost so much and could become nearly as powerfull as a lord : Power Weapon + Daemonic Strength or Power Fist, Daemonic Mutation, Spiky bits, etc. You could tool him up to have 5 attacks on charge, one of which could be reroled on miss. This was pretty good and that was my key piece to win a close combat. You would usualy kill 3 to 4 models each turn with a single AC.
Now our AC are pale imitation of their old counterpart. No extra strength, a limited number of attacks, no reroll, nothing to call grandma about. So now, i'm losing my close combats because of this...
Am I just a poor player or is it realy a big change for all of you ?
Any idea on what to do about it ?
CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7
Yeah, those were good times. The real strength of the last Codex wasn't in massive Daemon Princes; it was in the humble AC being tooled up to HQ-status while still being able to hide in a squad. (Frankly, I believe it's counterproductive to kit out an Independent Character for close combat against most armies...am I the only one who thinks this?)
You're right, our ACs are much weaker now to the point of being generic, but that's offset by the 'uber-grit' of our normal troops. The AC helps ensure we don't lose CC (or at least, take a couple of them with us), but to win CC we need the body count now.
It's a big change for me, but more the modeling side of the equation. I used the Armory plus conversions to make some really first-rate ACs...no more. Well, at least they make cool-looking Chosen. Otherwise, the main change for me was bumping my CSM squads from 8 to 10 men so they could keep the second plasma gun...and I use my Rhinos instead of Infiltrate.
My best advice is to make a point of softening up your targets before charging, but probably you do that already.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
The fact that you can't gear up an Aspiring Champion like we used too wasn't a huge loss for me. Yes our AC are not what they used to be but I find myself winning more often with the new codex than I was with the old one.
Yet our Aspiring Champions still shine in comparison with normal troopers and they are more in line with SM Sergeants. I think that GW believed that our cheap Lieutenant and our really good Aspiring Champions were a little bit overpowered and they nerfed them.
The good side of this is that you're going to be able to field some more CSM with the points you saved on all those nifty upgrades .
Bear in mind also, you can now give these units relatively cheap icons, which not only help the champ, but actually improve the entire squad too.
Want your champ to have extra attacks with his powerfist? Give them the Icon of Khorne
Want to be faster than the loyalist scum? Icon of Slaanesh for you
Want to be Ap 3 proof (or at least better off)? Icon of Tzeentch
Tougher than most. Icon of Nurgle
Also, all of the marines have both bolters, and boltpistols, so you can rapid fire, and still get your extra attacks in the assault!!
They may have been nerfed, but the squads that carry them have been made better to compensate. Yes their veteran skills are gone, but at least the equipment is better.
New LOChat functions now avaliable.
Need a list designed for any Fantasy army: Click Here
Idk... I like the new AC. Of course I don't like how much the p. fists. cost, but that's because they were so much cheaper. I find the current point cost to be a fair amout for a fist... it's just that most other codexes still have the lower cost.
I think a great example of the new champs is one of my plague champs. He was in a squad of 6. Got assualted by a squad of banshees.... held cc. with them for 2 turns... eventually my lone P.Fisting champ survived. 8X Good old S3 vs T5
I do agree that the standard squad size now should be around 8 or 10. Depending on what unit you're dealing with. You need those extra wounds and cc atks. Not to mention if it's a cult troop, it's always great having more of their delicious abilities.
It never affeted me because I never tried tooling up my AC in the 3rd ed., I like to keep it cheap and keep my army big. A couple Aspiring Champion will never win or lose you the game, heck, I usually dont even take ACs in my army to keep my army cheap and large in quantity (except cult troops, then I would always have a champion).
I think the reason you are losing is still because your need of adapting the new codex. :party: Try looking at other aspect of your army list, there must be other flaws to your composition.
Anima Tactics - try it out!
Think about it in comparison to other armies, who haven't ever had that ability. The only other army I can think of that can tool up an upgraded character to the same extent are DE because of their combat drugs, and I guarantee you that option will be gone when they finally get around to a new DE codex.
Last edited by Redtwin; October 29th, 2007 at 19:06. Reason: Removed some repetition
Welcome to the troubles of space marines!I've played a couple of game with the new codex and I happen to lose more often than before... At first, I thought this was due to the need to adapt to the new codex. Now, i firmly believe it's due to Aspiring Champions.
Icons are a reasonable option for giving your chaos units the edge in close combat. With a powerfist, the Icon of Khrone is probably best.
However, uber grit and grenades makes chaos marines overall pretty solid in close combat.
This codex forces players to make more compromises, and does not flow like the old list - that is units don't support each other as well, because they cant be as specialized, for a reasonable point cost.
I can't be the only person who thought the old AC was rediculous. I always was tempted to put a Khorne chosen in terminator armor with mutations just to out-attack an entire squad on the charge.
The unreasonable thing was mutation, strength, spiky bitz, etc. were not only unavailable to other armies, but considerably fewer points for an AC than an HQ. I'm glad it has been removed.
Who's with me? Am I alone in thinking the old ACs were seriously unbalancing? High points aside, Chaos used to be able to out-shoot and out-assault other armies with the same list. Tank hunting autocannon havoc squads with indirect firing basilisks or defilers with six attack champions really felt unbalanced.
I've played against plenty of chaos, and almost everyone vowed they had fluff armies yet dominated tournaments. On the other hand, they wouldn't be as dominant with their ultramarines, tau, orks, or other armies. Chaos needed to be fixed, and I think this codex still fits the chaos flavor, still able to do things other armies can't, but in a more balanced way.
I miss them. Not really from the gaming-point of view, but as a fluff thing.
The old reminder far more of a Roleplaying game in the sense of Characters actually being Characters. Maybe not all that different from one and other, but one had Daemonic Visage, the other had Spiky Bits some even a Termie Armour.
To me that was quite an important factor.
Sure, I maybe wouldn't use it when making competative lists, but there's a whole lot more to the game than that.
Today we do lack the game-mechanic to represent the diffference between those characters and that I must say feel a bit like a loss...
Though I must, as a Thousand Sons player, say we did gain a few new good things though...