Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I've often used 10-man CSM squads with a heavy bolter or lascanon and plasma gun previously and never thought much about it. As I've been reading these forums I've seen many saying that heavy weapons in regular units to be a waste of points. Recently, however, I've seen a few who use them anyway. Therefore, I'd like to hear peoples view on heavy weapons in regual CSM units.
Please state why you think it is good or bad as well as combos you like.
For armies comprised entirely of footsloggers, including heavy weapons in our troop slots work fairly well. For one thing, without rhinos, our infantry need a long range weapon that doesn't rely on movement. Price wise, the missile launcher is my top pick. However, depending on your army configuration, some builds may need lascannons.
That said, I have an general dislike for heavy weapons in troop slots, mainly owing to the fact that they're effective only when the unit stands still. Against stationary opponent's, such as static Tau and infantry I.G., chaos must advance. Our strong point against these armies is c.c., not range, and special weapons seem the optimum choice.
The other problem with heavy weapons is the lack of synergy with special weapons, coupled with the option of only taking a single heavy weapon. This means that a squads outfitted with both special and heavy weapons often have mixed role firepower- not always, but a good deal of the time. For instance:
10x marines w/ Glory Icon: 225-235 points
*1x missile or lascannon
*1x plasma gun
*1x a.c. with fist or power weapon.
The squad isn't exactly cost efficient for taking down vehicles, even if both the las and the plasma gun are firing; and when firing at a monolith or leman russ, the cost issue is further inflated, as only your 235 point lascannon can inflict damage. Similarly, when addressing swarms, the lascanon will overcook only a single piece of meat and leave the rest unscathed.
Now, you could sub in a heavy bolter (as you seem to be doing ), but is it worth having the extra range and swarm killing shots in exchange for remaining stationary? Seriously asking. While the heavy bolter is statistically brutal against all lightly armored troops, it really only comes into play against Orks, Eldar, Darky Eldar, and Nids. Lightly armored opponents designed around defensive tactics generally have superior firepower, which then forces the chaos player to advance upon the enemy line. Such armies include I.G. and static Tau. While the heavy bolter is extremely effective against both of these opponents, we tend to charge rather than sitting back. Again, this undermines the effectiveness of heavy bolters.
Just my two pennies
Last edited by Rabbit; November 13th, 2007 at 20:33.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
Rabbits pretty much got it. Especially since the new codex gives you more attacks and grenades. I find its really good to charge almost all the time.
Also, if you want some heavy weapons in an all infantry list then outfit a couple unit of havocs to do most of the dirty work.
If you want to use heavy weapons in regular squads I agree about the missile launcher being one of the best choices. But dual meltas just works better with most lists because of the assault afterwards, plus to ability to keep moving across the board without having to stop to shoot a tank.
The problem with Heavy Weapons on CSM (Havocs or regular) as i see it is lack of mobility. I'd take Obliterators any time over static Heavy Weapons, mobility is key.
The problem comes when considering Heavy Bolters in your squads, the Obliterators don't really cut it. Then there is a perfect solution called Noice Marines.
So, in my deranged mind:
Obliterators > Lascannon CSM
Noice Marines > HB CSM
Also a Thousand Sons squad with Bolt of Change sorcerer can replace the Lascannon squad. In the end though it all comes down to preference, i like mobile fire power infantry, some people don't.
"And that, my liege, is how we know the earth to be banana-shaped"
Just me being curious and slightly thread jacking.... :C
Would a heavy weapon on a small havoc squad in a combat patrol mission be good?
Would that justify having a heavy weapon in a small point game with practically no armour?
Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.
I have been experimenting with Heavy Weapons in CMS squad and here is one config that i found was successfull:
1 plasma gun
1 champion with power weapon
I use this squad for popping a transport on first turn if the opportunity is there but it is usually moving forward on first turn and then just stands there while the rest off the army advances. It can shoot at pretty much everything at medium range and it stays near my oblits and havocs (6 marines: 3 missile and 3 CSM) to protect them if something deep strike. It also provides a non negligeable medium-long range anti-infantry support to protect the rest of the army.
Since the autocanon and the plasma gun have the same strenght, no shot is wasted.
As has already been said, Havocs do it better. CSMs should be assault-based and i never take a heavy weapon for them. I do, however, take havocs to back them up armed with missile launchers/heavy bolters for lots of versatile firepower, with multi-meltas on my rhinos instead of lascannons. I think plasma is a case of to each their own, take them if they work for you.
Oblits arn't anti-infantry, as mobile as they are. In the old rules, when they could use heavy bolters (if i remember correctly), they were more of an option in my opinion. But thats a different kettle of fish...
I have to agree with nearly all of the above. It is a waste of points to buy a ten man squad in order to get a single heavy weapon that you have to stay stationary to fire.multi meltas on rhinos?!?!? Where do I sign up?with multi-meltas on my rhinos instead of lascannons.
I think you meant combi melta in place of multi melta or maybe dreadnought in place of rhino.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT!
I survived LO Chat thanks to: Karmoon, Rabbit, Process, Tossy and Meish.
Ah! my bad- I did mean combi melta. If only!