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Hi there people. Earlier today i was thinking about the lightening claws i was told to use for my Raptor leader, he is part of a squad of nine with two melta guns and himself with the claws. I was thinking, what would i get if i swapped the claws for the fist?
S8 is pretty good really isnt it
Can Instant kill T4 and below
Can damage vehicles and walkers
Allows the use of the bolt pistol as well, so i can shoot with it and gain +1A.
Striking at I1 isnt so much fun
Every champion has a powerfist
Lightening claws Pros
Reroll to wounds is quiet nice
Very good against S=T or S>T opponants
Strike at I
(NOW) Unique to the Lord and Raptor champion
Cant use pistol at all
Cant harm any thing with a decent armour value
So at the same points cost which is better? I was quiet supprised to find that the lightening claws on average kill 1.5 MEQs per 4 attacks (What the Champion will have on charge) while the powerfist deals out 1.66R MEQ kills.
So what should i use? In combination with the melta guns the powerfist seems like a nice idea, to mop up a tank if the meltas fail, but what about the Lightening claws?
well lightning claws juct look awsome so i'd vote for them, you can still take melta bombs for some anti vehicle cc. sucks against walkers but you are more mobile so you can avoid them and if you get stuck you still got the grenades. another cool thing is the use of icons, so i guess lightning claws really rock with an icon of slaanesh.
I think to some extent its a matter of how you want to use the raptor unit.
If you want them to be more of a surgical unit that picks on high-priority "hard" targets like armor and TMCs, then the powerfist is the obvious choice.
If you want them to wade into the nearest infantry unit, then lightning claws win out, in my opinion, because they strike with the rest of the raptors. Yeah the P.Fist might kill 0.16 more MEQs per round, but it does so after those MEQs have had a chance to hit back and possibly kill some expensive raptors. Also, if your raptors do enough killing, your P.Fist champ may never even get to swing. With careful model removal, your opponent could take away any enemy models that were in base-to-base with your champ and any raptor within 2" of your champ. Then, suddenly, when it becomes his turn to swing, he's no longer eligible to swing.
(unless I'm misinterpreting this rule, of course).
In an infantry-hunting raptor unit I'd use:
Mark of Khorne or Mark of Slaanesh
In a surgical strike raptor unit I'd use:
Mark of Khorne
Last edited by GiantKiller; January 7th, 2008 at 22:19. Reason: Clarification
Danjones, as usual, it also depends on the rest of your army. If you have power fists in your marine squads that can deal with monstrous creatures and the occasional strike at a vehicle, then take lightning claws in your raptors and specialize them for killing troops.
It also depends on your raptor icon. Obviously, the IoS should always use claws. I've found this generally to be the case with IoK as well, though, this is due to the fact that my builds include a high number of marine-based power fists.
One more thing: If you compare the claws to the fists on swarms, you'll see that the claws are significantly better.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
I just wanted to echo giant killer and Rabbits thoughts and throw my lot in with them. If your list is lacking power fists then grab the fist for your raptors for sure however if you have a fair number of fists and are unsure of how to outfit your champ I generally follow this rule:
IoK -> Fist
IoS -> claws
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT!
I survived LO Chat thanks to: Karmoon, Rabbit, Process, Tossy and Meish.
Well, just try it.
Play a few games using the powerfist (as I assume you've done a few with the lightning claws already) and see what you think of it.
I used to scorn powerfists when all my Noise Marine champions were hitting at Str. 6, I. 6 with furious charge and daemonic strength. But those days are long gone and I'm starting to appreciate the powerfist a lot more.
I will try them both i think.
I have three squads of infantry in rhinos with powerfists so i dont really need them too much, but i do have a lord and daemon prince flying around too and a powerfist would help to protect them aswell.
Can't believe I missed this thread...
Powerfists all the way.
Having used Lightning claws on a Lord (who has more attacks) several times, I've come to the conclusion that reroll or not, Marine strength is only semi usefull.
Against T3, it's not bad. Against anything higher, and you simply don't get the wounds in.
Against genestealers or what not, it matter not if you have an IoS.. they're going fast anyway, so you may as well make sure that when you hit them, you're make sure you kill them.
I was an advocate of lightning claws in the old codex - but that was only comboed with daemonic strength and furious charge, which aren't options to us anymore. It was also to strike at initiative order, to protect expensive models - namely bikes and raptors.
Now, bikes are a poor choice, and raptors are so cheap, protecting them isn't quite so important anymore.
The fact is, with lightning claws, you are closing tactical options too. As mentioned before, you can even think about engaging and finishing off a monster.
Let's consider an space marine chaplain also. With lightning claws, you'll hit with only half of your attacks, so 1 or 2 hits. With your pitiful strength you'll maybe get 1 wound or 2 if you're lucky with the rerolls. Then you factor in his invulnerable save.
He takes one wound, IF you're lucky. And if you're lucky enough to weather one round of a chappy assault, he will smash you down the next round. (he's going before you anyway)
Now take the same situation exept with a power fist. You're causing 1 or 2 wounds again. And he only has to fluff one invulnerable, and that's it - he's out of there.
Against swarms, who typically have low T and bad armour saves, there is NOTHING stopping you from using your bolt pistol instead of your power fist, and fighting at your I. Additionally, against actual swarm units, a lightning claw asp champ may defeat on base on his own.. but a power fist champ will kill two whole bases on his own. Instakill all the way baby.
You have far more to lose with taking lightning claws. Not everyone play marines. Against Eldar/Dark Eldar, a lot of nid units and others striking at initiative boots nothing.
Additionally, people do take wraithlords and carnifexes and C'tan. And your lascannons may be preoccupied with other targets.
Just take a look at the recent votewars - you'll see yourself what a pickle Ginger ninja has gotten himself in for taking pathetic lightning claws on his raptors. And you'll see how powerfists have worked really well in Dan Jones's list.
Thus I conclude. With new chaos, powerfists are the only way to go.
There are occasions where L Claws are more usefull - of this there is no doubt... however, on aggregate, there are more occasions where a powerfist will serve you better.
In terms of modelling, if you put some effort in, power fists can look far cooler - for example a twisted writhing ball of maggots and filth or 'plague fist' on a nurgle champion.
A massive power claw esque device.
A converterd Thunder Hammer.
In terms of looks, you're limited only by your own imagination.
Last edited by Karmoon; January 11th, 2008 at 16:47.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
I'm with Karmoon on this one. Lightning Claws just don't really cut it.
Maybe, maybe in an IoS squad the claws wouldn't be a terrible idea, but, overall, , they just don't stand up to the powerfist in terms of performance, utility, or versatility.
Once again, the conservative, sandwich-heavy portfolio pays off for the hungry investor!
OK, thats it, the Raptor champion is now having a powerfist. I was nigh on 100% sure it was the better option, complementing the sqauds dual meltas and speed, allowing me to run up to a vehicle, melta it, if failing running up to it and boshing a big hole in it.
The power fist may be a servo arm in this case, attached to the top of the jump pack for extra snippyness.