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Okay, I won't lie, I'm a WHORE for hidden powerfist, in the old codex EVERY SINGLE squad had a powerfist in it. I just <3 that little devil. So now in this new codex, where I can't spam my free asp chmp (nurgle) it's hard for me to justify putting them in there, it's 40 pts total for that powerfist... and... I don't know. It just seems like so much.
So I'm putting you all in charge of helping me find a work around for it. Any little words I missed, or a way to get the light tank busting power + a good power weapon for less points. I'm known for charging headfirst into a dreadnaught and a squad of 5 termies and winning with my nurgles, I've got a reputation to uphold. :3
Please and thank youuuu, and for this information I'll present an interesting idea I came upon. It can only be used with a very armor heavy list to be effective at all, but it's fun as crap. 5 noise marines (basic, no upgrades) with an asp champ + doom siren and a rhino. The rhino has a fireing port. :3 MEQ killing heavy flamers are pretty freaking awesome. Perhaps not a really good use of points, but people will be caught off guard with it.
Hahaha! Vile traitor, we loyal subjects of the Emperor get our powerfists for only 30 points!
But seriously, if you want anti tank, why not give the Aspiring Champion meltabombs? You could add a plain old power weapon and still come in under 40 points, if only by a little.
Cry woe, destruction, ruin and decay;
The worst is death, and death will have his day.
-Shakespeare; King Richard II
Overall, I see the use of power fists more closely tied to our inclusion of aspiring champions, as well as the initiative of the unit, rather than the cost.
In general our champions have taken a severe downgrading. They went from being mini lords in their own right to the greatly nerfed role of what they were intended: as squad leaders. We all miss those crazy champions with spiky bits and daemonic abilities, but they were indeed overpowered.
Alright, as for your question, power fists still have their use. The generic 10 man rhino squad with 2 specials and a champion certainly need a fist, as do Plague marines. Both of these units have the staying power to warrant a fist over a basic power weapon. Additionally, both are general squads, which means they must have ways of managing heavily armored troops as well as MCs. However, the other cult marines have alternatives better suited to their need. With furious charge, zerkers operate more effectively with a regular old power weapon; noise marines as well, for the obvious reasons. T.S. marines simply cannot tote the fist.
Noise Marine specifically: With the new codex, players have almost unanimously avoided champion use in noise marines (and therefore avoided the basic power weapon as well as the fist). There are a few reasons for this. For one thing, with the removal of vet skills, infantry-based armies must now contend with footslogging as the primary means of movement. The situation then naturally lends itself towards ranged units that don't have to worry about going the distance to find c.c.. As such, Noise marines and T.S. are solid choices, as they both come equipped with assault weaponry. I generally prefer noise marines, because they decimate swarms and aren't too shabby against marines. What's more, the noise marines can field the blastmaster, which fills virtually every role imaginable that one could want from a ranged weapon. Of course, players *have* the option of upgrading these ranged units with a champion and a power weapon/fist. However, the cost just isn't worth it. Here are a few noise marines squad that work well with no champions (or fists, as the thread is about):
8 noise marines
*7 sonic blasters
5 noise mairnes
*4 sonic blasters
(This squad is a a little hidden secret of mine. I'm hoping it will catch on. Generally if you can afford to field two of the above 8 man variant, then you can find a way to field 3 of these 5 man units, which offer more tank busting weaponry, swarm killing, and the option of diversifying fire to 3 enemy units rather than 2)
Chosen are a different story. Due to their versatile configurations, you can make squads conducive to the fist or without. For example:
*2-3 special weapons
*1 power fist
(spearhead support for short range combat and c.c.)
*2 special weapons
(a relic from 3rd edition. Specialized for rapid fire engagement)
Last edited by Rabbit; January 11th, 2008 at 19:30.
If you're playing with plague marines, then the powerfist is really the only CC upgrade worth it, a power sword is still good, but bear in mind your plague marines are striking after other marines/eldar etc. in assault, and at the same time as guard. plague marines are so slow, there's not much point in not giving them a power fist. 40pts isn't that much for a weapon that
a) scares people
b) can kill a land raider
c) can save your unit from getting tied up with a dreadnaught / walker.
of course, you could give your aspiring champion no weapon upgrades. and then we'd have to beat you into the ground for being a fool.
If I've replied, i've probably used Italics...
www.goodbyeboltgun.blogspot.com - Some of my stuff.
I see what you mean though, I think I'm just too used to EVERY squad having them, and now that I'm running a lot of basic d00d marines, the fist doesn't see too much play. It really is a must on the nurgles, but upping the squad cost by 40 points hurts so bad....
Is the blast master really that good? I havn't used it much yet, and on paper it seems mighty costly for what it does.
Now, I don't even see the need for Champions on my Troops anymore. The squad itself gained +10 attacks just through Ultra-grit alone, which nearly makes up for the loss of the P-Fisted Champion. Or, if you look at it from the opposite angle, what my troopers kill through Bolter fire is about equal to what the Champion could've killed in close combat.
That is my work around for the P-Fist - I simply don't take him anymore. I use my Troops for ranged death and swamping enemies through a significant amount of regular attacks. Sure, I miss my Power fisted Champions at times, but I've never 40 point missed them. If you really want to screw with your opponent, you could just purchase an Icon of Khorne.
I still take Powerfists in my Chosen units, though. Even if on non-Champions, two of them in the unit is roughly the same cost as my old Alpha Legion Champions, and is only short one attack, except when charging, and there's more benefit when an IoK is thrown in.
You're also paying for the fact that it's the only pinning weapon in the entire Codex, excluding Lash of Submission.
I'd like to hear more about these non-AC, non-powerfisted squads. I'm running 3 squads, 2 meltaguns, AC w/ PF and a Rhino w/ EA each in a mechanized list, if I dropped the powerfists I'd save 120 points - enough for a dreadnought, adding an IoK to the 3 rhino squads and the bike squad or enough to upgrade a predator to a Land Raider or some other nice upgrades.
But I'm scared. I'd be defenseless against charging MCs, Terminators, etc. It is tempting and rumors of your wisdom (Caluin) have spread far and wide...
Maybe I should just try it.
He did make a very good point... the only counter-point I can make is that when your forces dwindle, the benifit from MoK no longer compares to the power of a P.fist. Because if you lose 3 guys, your fist is still rocking strong, popping d00ds. But the MoK has weaker returns due to the loss of mans.... but 40 pts per squad is heavy, and 3 squads of that is a ton.
Stupid... new codex.... powerfists.... grr
The problem is solved by taking both IoK and Power Fist. Fists still rock, they cost more but not too much.
The logic used in 3rd ed is still viable, a unit without a Fist is smoked against the wrong antagonist, and a Fist gets more kills against regular guys.
"And that, my liege, is how we know the earth to be banana-shaped"
Over the course of three squads, I can definitely find another use for 210 points. That's almost three Obliterators, who will do a better job of dealing with enemy walkers than a PFisted Champion, and still be comparable against MCs.I would not drop the Powerfists in those squads. The Meltas ensure that they're always going to be in the thick of the fighting, and pretty much always trying to engage in close combat. In that case, since your guys are spending most of their time trying to crush people's heads, you may as well make sure they're geared for it.Originally Posted by grimmtu
The CSM squads I use wield two plasmaguns (or possibly a plasma/heavy) instead of Meltas, and the Rhino has only an extra TL Bolter (Not EA). They're more stand-offish; at any time they may decide to hang back and take the long shots, or may hop into the Rhino for a quick Rapid-Fire drive by. I pick and choose who my Marines engage very carefully - if I don't think they have a very good chance of swamping the enemy unit, they'll not engage in close combat.
The Melta unit though; it seems they're more likely to go barreling head first into the closest enemy, just to keep themselves from getting shot. That's a good strategy, and one that's worked for a long time, but pretty much demands that your units be equipped properly for the job.This is a good thing, though! Gone are the days of 'must have' upgrades. Extra Armour was so cheap that it was a no-brainer to add to every transport. Power Fists were cheap upgrades to Power Weapons, and the lowered init value really means nothing when you're hidden behind nine ablative wounds.Originally Posted by Serbi
Now, with a few changes, we're all forced to look for alternatives. I pass on Extra Armour now, since I feel the risk of suffering a Stunned result is minor compared to the 30 points I'm saving. The Powerfist is still a good choice to take in squads, but is no longer the end-all, be-all of choices. Taking a Powerfist in every squad won't break your army, but not taking it won't break it either, unlike in the last edition. Now you have the option of choosing an alternative which might work just as well for you, or possibly even better.
This is a good thing.