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I was playing a 2v3 match last night with my group. I was Chaos teamed with Orc, playing against Blood Angles, Generic SM and Eldar. The match wasn't to horrible, but I ended up calling it the bottom of the 4th turn. Simply didn't have enough remaining scoring units to contest enough table quarters. But in this game, we all used a variety of tactics. My personal problem with this match is that it became glaringly obvious that Chaos suffers from the song "anything you can do I can do better" when opposing pretty much every other army. So I've come here to seek some tactical help. Here are a few examples...
1. Deep Striking Terminators. I have 2 squads of 5 with Reapers dropping in the middle of the Eldar encampment. The first hit exactly where I wanted them to, the others scattered into the Ranger and were destroyed. (The Marine player did not have to worry about scatter since he had drop pods.) Is there perhaps a better position or distance I could have done? Without homers on the field and no way to avoid tele-gibs, what's a better solution?
2. Low Possessed. I try to use these guys when I can, their experimentally useful in various situations. Not so much today since they only had Feel no Pain. As arguably my only assault choice, they saw combat once that game, against Harlequins. (Who ingorned difficult terrain and could fleet on top of that) Luckily they were tied up with my Lord at the time so didn't survive the charge from the Possessed. But for obviously only created for H2H, Possessed seem utterly pointless for their high point costs, low mobility and random affects that may do nothing for you (had power weapons agains't orcs one time... ugh). How can they be used affectively if at all?
3. Princes Psychic Powers. They had both Eldrad (cheaper than a full decked librarian with better rules... /sigh) and a Librarian with a Psychic Hood on the field. I didn't even bother to use a single power (he had Warptime + Gift). I just didn't feel it worth it to take tests on 3D6 with a high chance to suffer wounds and end up getting the power nullified anyway. Thoughts?
4. Useless cover. While I kept many troops in cover, it didn't seem to make a difference; frag gernades, plasma gernades, Fear of the Dark (or whatever it's called).
5. Army list maybe? I'll admit some holes in my list (like the lack of Champions in several squads, had to test the theory) but could I have made additional adjustments?
Prince, Tzeentch, Wings, Warptime, Gift
5 Term, Reaper
5 Term, Reaper
5 CSM, Melta, Champ/Fist
5 CSM, Melta, Champ/Fist
5 CSM, Melta
5 Hav, Las + Auto
5 Hav, Las + Auto
I thought I would have enough shooties, especially teamed with an Orc player with about 120 boys on the field, but it certainly didn't seem to be enough. Some units seemed to do decently, instant melta gib on a Baal Predator (that took out two of my own guys blowing up... /sigh)... actually, now that I think about it, there the only squad that paid for themselves. I can't think of any performance of any other squad that did admirably.
But again, it just seemed like I was getting reemed with the concept of "anything you can do I can do better". There terminators had 2 Ass-Canons with 5 models. The generic marine troops were packing at least 2 plasmas each, if not with jump packs on top of that. They could deep strike with no potential losses. Their assault troops were just faster and could do more damage than ours. Even their smaller unit sizes simply had more dice rolls then we did. They could enhance their troops with psychic powers where it was stupidly dangerous to use ours.
Anyone else feel like that sometimes? I just need some ideas.
He seems fine, it is just sometimes you will face armies with lots of anti pysker stuff. Last weak I faced DH / eldar and had the same problem with the runes of warding, aegis armor and ungents of warding.Prince, Tzeentch, Wings, Warptime, GiftI would just walk these guys on, but I am not a fan of deepstrike at all and I think it is almost never worth the risk. Since even if you land safely you are still bunched up for blasts / templates.5 Term, Reaper
5 Term, ReaperSince we dont have ATSKNF having such small squads tends to not workout very well.5 CSM, Melta, Champ/Fist
5 CSM, Melta, Champ/Fist
5 CSM, MeltaDrop these or one of your terminator squads to bulk up your other squads.5 PossessedAgain just need more bodies in the squad.5 Hav, Las + Auto
5 Hav, Las + Auto
- You must set fire to water or you will be extinguished.
I think you're failing to take advantage of the new codex's strength, which lies in the basic csm squad. You don't really have enough numbers to be competitive with that list. Also, yeah Eldrad is a right pain in the butt but that doesn't prevent your daemon prince getting into combat and ripping things up anyway, he doesn't really need warptime to deal significant damage.
I'd get rid of the possessed, they are pretty useless in this current dex, and i'd bulk up the csm squads. Try and at least get icons of chaos glory, it's only 10 points and can be a life saver.
Walking the terminators on would be a better choice, sure they can't use their bolters out to full range when they move but the reaper is a great light vehicle sniper.
If you are going to use different weapons in your havocs, maybe consider putting the lascannons in one squad and the autocannons in the other ?.
If you are planning on deepstriking terminators, make sure you have icons to use, scatter is just too painful.
If you can bulk up your csm and havoc squads, you'll find they'll start getting more effective. Especially when teamed up with icons of chaos glory.
I guess you should re-arrange a few things...
1. Possessed. You asked if there was a good use for them - there is. "Chaos marine accessory sprue". The rules makes them near useless, IMO. But the models are just plain awesome, and the bitz look great if you spread 'em around your normal marines. Super spiky shoulder pads, extreme faces, the coolest legs made for CSM, and the wings!!! Wow! But the possessed squad in game? Ugh.
2. Vanilla CSM squads. Equip them like this: 10 guys total per squad. Icon of Chaos Glory. 2 dudes with either meltas or plasma guns. (don't mix) Champ with fist. -- Go forth and destroy --
-This is probably the best infantry squad in the game. Try a few squads - it's incredible what they can handle. Don't forget the Icon of Chaos Glory, because it is our ASTKNF.
3. Terminators. The Reaper is not an ass.cannon. Don't think it's a replacement -- you have to think more chaosy -our termies are different (and better looking) so you have to equip them different... Try the "Karmoon Special" it's an impossibly good squad - 4 Termies with Combi-plasmas and powerweapons, one with a heavy flamer and chainfist. Deep strike behind some unit you want to eliminate, rapid-fire the plasmaguns, and head 'on in!! Death and mayhem ensue. (for them)
4. Havocs. Don't mix the weapons. Missiles in one squad, Cannons in the other. (see a trend about mixing weapons yet??) And you must add more bodies - if your enemy gets the assault, these guys are dead without the extra wounds.
If you can, get a couple more CSM boxes. with two, you get everything you need to make 2 proper squads - 20 bodies, 2 icons, 2 meltas, 2 plasmas, 2 powerfists. Cool!beat him at his own game...But again, it just seemed like I was getting reemed with the concept of "anything you can do I can do better"We can have a heavy flamer and 4 plasmaguns in a 5 model squad. And, with powerweapons, we hit first in HtH...There terminators had 2 Ass-Canons with 5 models.Works pretty good, dosen't it? DO IT - we can!!The generic marine troops were packing at least 2 plasmas each, if not with jump packs on top of that.We can send in lesser daemons the same way. Even through a rhino as it drives by! AND we know exactily where the greater Daemon will pop out... That will ruin any MEQ squad fast.They could deep strike with no potential losses.??? Would you expand on this? Raptors are pretty much identical to a Jump Pack marine... but cheaper!Their assault troops were just faster and could do more damage than ours.
I suggest turning both termie squads into "Karmon special"'s (4 guys, 3 combi plas, 1 c. fist - 150 pts) and dropping possessed, combine a CSM squad to get a 10 man with a P.fist and double melta, and now that you dropped some pts in the termies and dropped pts with the possessed, take two squads of 6 CSM havocs and give one tripple RL and one tripple AC, and use the termies/DP to take down AV 14 tanks.
I think your problem is that you're trying to run chaos like some other army, with your min-maxed small squads and such. I feel like the new chaos codex encourages large squads, unlike many other armies. We do not have ATSKNF for regrouping purposes, and can never beat space marines in heavy weapons. In addition, squads like terminators give us a "bonus" heavy weapon for a maxed out squad. Large squads mean you will not have to test for leadership often, keeping you from running away, and it is difficult to reduce a squad below scoring (you seemed to have that problem). There will be nothing subtle with chaos...mostly everything will be done en masse.
What you must know is the chaos can never win in a long range firefight. That said, we can have the advantage in a mid-range firefight, and in close combat. Also, chaos does not do well in small points.
Most of my comments on your list I see have already been mentioned.
-As others have mentioned, drop the possessed, they're really no good. If you want a unit for close combat, I recommend raptors, with a champ with a powerfist and melta gun(s). Unlike possessed, they're reliable, highly mobile, and fairly priced. Take them in squads no less than 10....preferably more (like 14 or 16).
-Consider combi-plasma on deep-striking terminators, if you have the points. They can do a lot of damage on the turn they shoot.
-If you want to take the havoks, as mentioned, do not mix the weapons when you can. If you rely on havoks, I can see why you might suffer from inferiority syndrome to space marines. Their devastators won't run away, and can benefit from veteran skills. Give obliterators a try, it's something space marines don't have. Oblits are far more versatile and mobile than havoks, if slightly more fragile. Again, if you do go with oblits, don't just take 1 or 2. Take 4-6.
-Undivided marines should be in large squads. Again, 10 is a good number. We don't have ATSKNF, but we do have tough marines with bolters and close combat weapons, and in large squads you don't have to worry about leadership as much. Take a powerfist and some special weapons, and maybe throw in a rhino.
You're having problems because you are trying to do what other lists are doing. Instead, focus on chaos's unique advantages and disadvantages, and play to those strengths.
My opinion is that 1)And SM army is a jack-of-all-trades army so some one can do anything you can do but better. and 2) you need more marines. the smaller squads mean that it takes onlt 3 dead marines for that unit to not be scoring. pluse they don't have a rhino so they will just be fire bait.
Last edited by Willance; February 3rd, 2008 at 03:50. Reason: spelling
Army's used: Space Wolves, Tomb Kings, High Elves, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar.
What is ATSKNF?
Also, how many obliterators can one take? I didn't think they could squad.
I play Tau, and I can tell you firsthand that while you can't win in a long range battle, Obliterators and Lash of Submission can even things out enough for you to close in. As you've read elsewhere, don't use Possessed, they suck. But I do agree that their models look really cool.
Also, something my Chaos friend pulls on me is sending in Raptors with meltas. They can break/annihilate an un-shield-droned Crisis team in one firing turn. As for dealing with Eldar and Space Marines, I don't know, but I would assume that this raptor setup can be used to kill pricey units early on.
Don't get it in your head that there's something wrong with your army after one loss. Remember you have the only army that can boast a first-turn charge by means of Daemon Price + Wings + Lash.
Also, while the rhinos can roll in your squads much faster, try to bear in mind that when you're facing lascannons, fire dragons, or railguns, that rhino is pretty much a coffin on wheels.
And don't ever play defensively. Chaos doesn't defend. Chaos maims, kills, and burns.
As for Rhinos, going with the chaos theme, these things should usually be taken in multiples. A couple rhinos (they're dirty cheap now anyway points-wise), and other vehicles and their survivability will improve as enemies will have to split their anti-vehicle fire. And you don't have to start the game embarked inside the rhinos....this is often a bad idea because if you don't get first turn, they can end up as Ausare said, rolling coffins.