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Good Fast Attack choice?

1K views 24 replies 18 participants last post by  null_sheen 
#1 ·
Just wondering what you guys use as a good flanking/nuisance fast attack unit. Raptors? Bikers? Etc.
 
#3 ·
Bikes all the way. Hard-to-kill, high-speed melta guns with powerfist backup is quite the flanker. Raptors are better for actual combat purposes as they don't generally perform well on their own. Sometimes a winged Daemon Prince will do the job, too, but usually I harrass with bikes.
 
#4 ·
I think I might be misunderstanding the rules on deep strike. Everyone talks about demon bombing on turn two using bikes with an icon. I get that the termis or demons won't deviate if you deploy them with the mark but don't you have to roll to see if they will even appear or not? Is there a way to guarantee that they will arrive on turn two?

It seems risky to tailor your list around something random.
 
#5 ·
I think I might be misunderstanding the rules on deep strike. Everyone talks about demon bombing on turn two using bikes with an icon. I get that the termis or demons won't deviate if you deploy them with the mark but don't you have to roll to see if they will even appear or not? Is there a way to guarantee that they will arrive on turn two?

It seems risky to tailor your list around something random.
No matter what you plan or how well something should be going; you will ALWAYS be at the mercy of the dice. There's no such thing as a sure thing in 40k.

The point of the demon bomb is to get someone within range. Yes it's true that most of the time you have to roll to see if they enter or not, but some missions do force certain amounts of reserves in at any given time. 1/2 remaining forces on 2nd turn in Apocalypse for example.

Besides that imo; lesser demons are wasted points with our current codex. Greater demons are nifty enough, especially since you never have to worry about scattering.
 
#6 ·
Yes, Demons aren't guaranteed to enter on the turn you want, but the more deep striking units you have, the more likely you'll get numbers on the board. Demonbombing is still and OK strategy, IMO, but now you have non-scattering Terminators to take as well, which is pretty cool.

I do agree that Lesser Demons aren't that impressive, especially against MEQs. I use them to tie up the enemy while my other troops can get to grips. Alternatively, you can use them as a defense against hordes. Say you had a squad of CSM that are about to get swamped by some Orks, 'Nids, etc.; you could deep strike the demons to either head off the enemy charge or support in combat after your unit is engaged. Thus, you don't demonbomb so much as you demondefend.
 
#7 ·
My faveorite flanking unit is my Melta fist raptors. Two melta guns, a champion with a powerfist and between 6 and 10 bodies. Its good at anti tank and still dishes out a hefty amount of attacks being able to pick fights with its speed. I team this up with a lord with the Tzeentch Daemon weapon which is good at shooting up marine squads.

Dan
 
#8 ·
My entire army is as fast as I can make it. :p

But the really fast stuff is the Raptors. I give them an IoS, two Meltaguns, and a LC Champ; basically they're just point and shoot infantry slaughtering combat machines. I send a Lord or Sorcerer with them for support. Great against anything I4 or below. Which is... most things.
 
#10 ·
I think raptors and bikers have two different purposes.

Bikers are for flanking/rear-strike type tactics. They are the fastest thing in Chaos, able to quickly get where they need to be to hit your opponent where it hurts the most. Against weak rear support units, numbers aren't going to make a big difference - but speed will - taking down that key vehicle or key heavy weapons squad is what bikes are best at. If you throw them against your opponent's main forward thrust, they are going to die quickly because of their low numbers.

For shock-troops - leading your main forward thrust - raptors are the way to go. Their higher numbers allow them to hold their own in close-combat against your opponent's main forward troops while supporting or being supported by your basic troops. They are fast, but not quite as fast as bikers, meaning they can be used for rear/flanking strikes, but will not do as well in that role - taking two or so turns longer than bikes to get where they need to be.

Either one works well as a daemon bomb, it just depends on where you want those daemons to be.

Finally, don't forget Raptors can deepstrike. They can't use icons for it, so they aren't quite as precise as other units, but it's still an option.
 
#13 ·
Although I like both Raptors and Bikes, my first choice is always Raptors.

I use 8 with Meltaguns and a Power Fist. If I can afford it, I make them Khorne too. A Khorne Champ has 5 Attacks when charging, i.e. 5 Power Fist attacks.

Same with Bikes for me, Khorne, Meltaguns and a Power Fist. I use bikes in 4-6s usually.

The main difference for me between Raptors and Bikes is the ability to jump over enemy units and terrain + the option of Deep Strike.

Most of the time, I use a winged Lord/Sorcerer/Daemon with these units. Having said that I have great results from an Undivided Lord on bike with a Deamon Weapon.

Lord Ramon
 
#14 ·
I use raptors. 2 meltas and a pair of lightning claws. The power fist is not needed since the meltas can pretty much vaporize any armor it gets near, plus you get re-roll to wound, on top of no armor saves plus you dont loose Inistiative as you would with a bulky power fist.
 
#15 ·
I know its your choice, but the powerfist is a much better weapon over the lightening claws for the Raptor champion. The powerfist meshes much better with the meltaguns, allowing the raptors to follow through into a vehicle or MC that they have shot. The Powerfist causes more wounds than the lightening claws against MEQs, and will cause more wounds against models with high toughness. You also should have plenty of raptors around to soak up any wounds that will be thrown his way. With the powerfist you still get to use your bolt pistol while the powerfist doesnt replace it, that allows you one shot before combat which could be another casualty for your opponant before blows are struck.

Thats just my opinion Im not flaming you.

Dan
 
#16 · (Edited)
I have to agree with Danjones here. After some playtesting I've got to support the Powerfist on the Raptors. Personally, I think Lightning Claws are more fluffy, look prettier and are more fun to kill things with, but when it comes to effectiveness - the Powerfist wins for me unless the Icon of Slaneesh is involved.

Also, to add on to the bit about Powerfists being effective against vehicles, keep in mind it lets you prevent taking enemy fire. This is a common problem for me when I use Raptors for anti-tank - there they sit in front of a tank and a unit or two of enemy troopers who look angryful. Powerfists let you assault Monstrous Creatures and Dreadnoughts, and could mean the survival of the Raptors. It's not a guarantee, but just something to consider.
 
#17 ·
I know you asked for fast attack choices, but you also said nuisance. The best PITA that we chaos players have is a group of lesser daemons dropped out of a rhino during a drive-by. it will tie up the best units for at least a turn, probably two, and take out some enemy as well.

Remember, the rules on summoning say that you can use an icon when it's in a rhino...

(evil laugh)
 
#18 ·
I dunno, I think that a powerfist, if you use the Icon of Slaanesh, just seems like a waste. I stick my Lord with the Raptors and everyone hits at I5. As long as you send them at the right targets, they'll likely win the combat. Plus, you can stick powerfists anywhere, you know? It's all about picking your battles IMO.

But that's just me, and it's definitely influenced by how I play my army, so no biggie.
 
#20 ·
There are two likely reasons for including meltaguns in a raptor squad:
1. Their cheap and you want the ability to kill tanks, but your real goal for them is to go into CC.
2. You use them as a highly mobile anti tank resource.

For number 1, I'd go with claws, for 2, I'd go for the fist.

To add in with the "Yay for fists" choir; I recently had a game against some space nuns. On turn three he parks a rhino within 18" of my raptors (2 meltaguns and a fist). I jump ahead to 4" away and fire. Both meltagunners miss! Had I not rolled 3 on my difficult terrain test on the assault, I would have been happy to have the fist. :p
Funny side note: That same shooting phase, two other meltagunners in separate squads, in separate rhinos stick their heads out of their fire ports and fires on another space nun rhino from 2" range and miss. :) I was delirious with joy. Oh, and did I mention that at that point, both targeted rhinos was full of space nuns and I never got another shot at incinerating them in their rolling coffins? :)
 
#21 ·
well for me It's simple raptor's

I like their stat line and their adeptebilty more then the biker's plus I hate the way biker's look but that's just me. I use my raptor's with a melta gun and a simple power weapon on the ASp champ. tis because of my points. I larger games i would not hasitate to put a extra melta gun in their. BUT i would never use a power fist for 2 reasons.

1 hitting a moving vehicle is not a fun thing to do especally against rhino's it's moustly 6's to hit then 4+ to do any damage. this in my opinion is waiting for to many lucky roles even with a IoK for more attacks.

2 efentually you will get in to cc with these guys then the normale power weapon or is good enough. a powerfist would be to slow and I've seen it die to many times before it could get it's punch in.

also on the look side my army is tzeentch themed And I'm planing to make the raptor's with thousand sons boddies on lying disc's to acompany my lord on his flying disc looks nice and damm when they hit a unit it starts dropping fast :D
 
#23 ·
Of the fast attack options, I much preffer Raptors overall. Bikers are ok, and I really like the models, but they just cost too many points for too little oomph and versatility. In small numbers for rear tank-hunting they can work, but you have to be really careful and have some good terrain to hide behind on the way or that small unit gets toasted in 1 round of shooting. And in my experience bikes actually don't have any signifigant edge against raptors for mobility simply because thier big turbo boost can't go through terrain, and they can't jump over enemy units.

Raptors I typically kit out for infantry-sweeping. Champ with lightning claws, 2 flamers, and either Icon of Khorne or Slaanesh (typically Slaanesh), maybe meltabombs for anti-tank in a pinch points permitting, and 7-8 strong per squad. Jump Infantry is what really makes Flamers shine in my experience (used to play sisters with similarly kitted seraphim before I turned on the false emperor). Having that superb flexible mobility let's me get them into great firing positions almost all the time. Horde armies fear these weapons for good reason, and even marines should respect them (Oh look, make 7 saves from 1 flamer!) It's not a unit to hunt tanks, but I've got oblits, melta-toting mounted marines, havocs, and MCs to deal with them anyway. So in my army, they work and really fill out the assault end of things.

If I were running a more assault-focused set of basic troops, I'd probably take smaller squads of melta-fist raptors instead to help keep things balanced out.
 
#24 ·
Bikes are very good at what they do - which is moving fast and getting where they need to be. They are able to do that 24 inch boost and get to point A to point B better than anything else we have. Which is great for summoning, tank hunting (or getting them to move so they're in range for a different tank hunter) and they can assault if needed with the power fist.

But, unlike the bikes, raptors are a bit slower, aren't as tough, are much cheaper though. And although they lose the benefits of the boost, they gain many, many more attacks in close combat. If you combine them with a lash, they can often assault turn 1 (if you're lucky) or at least keep themselves safe till they can hit CC and then tear everyone apart.

I often use a 13 man squad of raptors with MoK, double melta and a powerfist.350 pts never tasted so good.
 
#25 ·
Well not to repeat the same thing again and again, but Bikes and Raptors have different rolls.
I find bikes to be better at tankhunting and assaulting smaller units, raptors may be cheaper but bikes have the following advantages.

Able to shoot at 24" range
Able to rapid fire with re-rolls to hit before charging
Able to turbo boost so are quicker and then have an invul save
Have T5 so are more resilient to damage

I once had a 5 man bike squad with a lord and a daemon weapon withstand the charges of a total of 48 orks (the 3 Nobs had big choppers not Powerklaws ) just because they needed 6 to wound after the charge round.

I really dont feel there is much difference between an 8 man raptor unit and a 5 man bike unit.
 
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