Disease V.S. Change, along with a moving Rhino question - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
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    In a 2000 point army list I want to know, am I better off taking Plagues or Rubrics if I mostly play MEQs? I need something to support my army in shooting, so it is either Rubrics or plagues.

    I am leaning towards Rubrics, simply because the though of getting 20 ap3 shots in on a squad is too good to pass up. They are not as survivable though. What should I chose?

    by the way, for fire points, can I shoot from the whole squad out of one? The book does not really say. If so, can I move 11" then shoot out of the Rhino with the whole squad? How about Lashing things from inside the Rhino?

    Moderator note: I've removed the link in your post, because it violates our forum rules concerning the inclusion of links that directly compete with Librarium Online. Thank you ~Rabbit.

    Really? I was certain that was a link to librarium online, just to another post in it. Doesn't matter, as I went and got the right link. Is there anything wrong with posting this?

    http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/chaos-army-lists/115693-yay-failed-army-list-help-fix-please-2000-points-black-legion.html

    Last edited by Pika_Power; March 30th, 2008 at 19:19. Reason: Needed to edit back in a link

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Necrontyr's Avatar
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    If you're mostly up against MEQs and you need firepower, don't think too much about resilience and go with the most obvious option, rubrics! they love fighting marines!

    You can find information about fire points in the BGB. Though i suppose it's common knowledge and it's ok for me to tell you here, so i can inform you that one model can fire per fire point, unless stated otherwise in the codex. Many seem to think that two models should be able to fire out of it, since all other regular marines can, and we could as well in the old chaos codex, but since it's not stated in our new codex, we have to follow the BGB.
    "I have seen you humans, trying to forge an Empire in the name of a corpse"

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    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Pika_Power, a few quick things:

    1) Fire points: Strictly going by the literal rules (Rules as Written- i.e., RaW), chaos rhinos only permit a single model from firing out of the fire point, as Necrontyr said. However, in every tournament I've visited, all participants and even the judges agree that this is probably an oversight on the part of GW. In other words, most players honestly feel that chaos rhinos give access to two models through the fire points. Again, RaW says otherwise, but the spirit of the rules, as well as the general community, would allow two models to fire from a chaos rhino's fire point.

    2) Movement: Remember, you can move 11.99" and still deploy, not 11" (just trying to maximize your game )

    On to the meat: If you're having to choose between Plague Marine sand Tzeentch Marines, I'm in agreement with Necrontyr- take Tzeentch. However, why not take both? I run two units of each in one of my 1850 build, and they have very good synergy together. Basically, Tzeentch Marines reduce the enemy at range, and then the Plaguers mop up in c.c.. Also, are you completely opposed to using Berzerkers? They are our best option for killing MEQs.

    Side: I took a quick look at your list, and there are many things that you can do to optimize your units. If you care to post your build in the chaos army list, I'm certain you'll receive some very good feedback.
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  5. #4
    Chilli Fueled Heretic danjones87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
    2) Movement: Remember, you can move 11.99" and still deploy, not 11" (just trying to maximize your game )
    In my BGB it says you can deploy even if you move the full 12.
    ....and cannot deploy at all if they have moved more than 12 inches.
    Rubric marines are far better suited to anti MEQ, Id use as big a squad as I could afford, in a Rhino with the sorc with Doombolt, it has great synergy with the inferno bolters.

    Dan

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    A few things to note.

    1. So rubrics seem to be the virdict? If so, is this rhino method any good for them? Start off in it, move up, disembark. I should be within 24". Start laying down the shots.

    2. As for Bezerkers, I love em! I have two ten man squads in Rhinos for the list! Currently I only have one of them, but they almost always do something meaningful.

    3. Can they outshoot necrons?

    4. How should I try to use the rest of the list in relation to them? I know they will scare off most devestators, but what should I run next to them to deal with predators and the like?

    5. Vindicator or Defiler with 2CC? I am stuck between one or the other. I want some ordnance in my list.

    6. How should I use the whole list in general? Pretty much I do not so much need list rating, (as it seems to be okay) I more want strategy, and how to actually use the list. I read the Rhino tactics section, but I want to know, if I send up 4 rhinos, and a vincicator along with a daemon prince, I think the vindicator will be shot first.

    So, how does this scenario pan out, I have got first turn, and I have started my troops in the Rhinos. I move them all up. Everything disembarks. The Lash prince gets the nearest squad, and lashes it towards me for a cheap vindicator canon and a sons hail of fire. Enemy's turn, I assume they will either run with the squad that is near, or they will assault. Either one works for me. They will attack the Vindicator. It may or may not live.

    Next turn, I move the Rhinos to block Los to the vindicator and predator if possible. Bezerkers charge, kill thing the prince lashed.

    Does this work? Anyway, midgame a termie squad will appear, just to shake things up.

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    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danjones87 View Post
    In my BGB it says you can deploy even if you move the full 12.


    Rubric marines are far better suited to anti MEQ, Id use as big a squad as I could afford, in a Rhino with the sorc with Doombolt, it has great synergy with the inferno bolters.

    Dan
    Always there for me .

    1) Pika_Power, Rubrics can be used successfully both with and without rhinos. If you have the points, then rhinos are immensely valuable, as they compensate for the pesky slow and purposeful mechanic, along with functioning as mobile terrain. Most of the time, your Tzeentch Marines should be capable of reaching the enemy on turn 1 with their bolter fire, considering their movement. However, it's not a sure thing, hence, your rhino tactic. Once deployed, these pups should just keep marching towards the enemy line, until they reach rapid fire range, at which point, they should sit back and fire. That said, there are times when it's best to charge them into c.c., but rarely in my experience is this beneficial. As a general rule, they stop within rapid fire range and lay into enemy infantry.

    2) Berzerkers: These maniacs, coupled with Rubrics, should net you a very serious MEQ killing force.

    3) Berzerkers cannot outshoot Necrons, but they should be charging into c.c. anyway. However, Tzeentch Marines outshoot Necrons by a moderately small margin. Scenario: 8 T.S. Marines -vs- 8 Cron Warriors will produce the following kills in rapid fire range:

    Tzeentch Marines will kill 2.7 Crons
    Crons will kill 1.8 Tzeentch Mairnes.

    I haven't run the math in c.c., but I'm fairly certain it's to your advantage to shoot Crons rather than take them on in c.c with Tzeentch Marines.

    4) I'll get to this in your army list

    5) Generally, the defiler is a better, as it has stouter side armor and longer range. Also, it can handle it's own in c.c..

    6) Same as #4
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    Murder omgitsduane's Avatar
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    Defiler over VIND for me, the 2 ccw is deadly as hell, I had one take out a dread in CC kill another dread, and take out 20 or more marines in a game, VIND is dead meat if anything comes near it though.

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    I was actually leaning toward something like this as well.Except i was going to include 2 units of bezerkers, 2 rubrics and a unit of deathguard, the zerkers and rubrics mounted in rhinos supported by havocs, a defiler, and a squad of oblits. ahhh the eyesore that would be on the battlefield.

  10. #9
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    I haven't run the math in c.c., but I'm fairly certain it's to your advantage to shoot Crons rather than take them on in c.c with Tzeentch Marines.
    How do you figure that? Necrons warriors are among some of the worst troops in hth. If you have a squad 9 Tsons(8 rubric, 1 sorc) you can move forward rapid fire between 17-19 shots and then charge whats still up. Yes they are even in number of attacks but the Tsons have the sorc who would get 4 power weapon attacks, depending on a res orb you can kill at least 1 with force weapon and up to 4 with him alone. Although it would definatly depend on the situation as to what is more beneficial at the time.

    It depends by how much more MEQ killing you want for vindicator or defiler, I've found that if you're gonna run defilers in your list you should always run at least a pair of them. I've found them more survivable that way plus as said before you have have a cc beatstick that just happens to fire pie plates as he advances.

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    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solain View Post
    How do you figure that? Necrons warriors are among some of the worst troops in hth. If you have a squad 9 Tsons(8 rubric, 1 sorc) you can move forward rapid fire between 17-19 shots and then charge whats still up. Yes they are even in number of attacks but the Tsons have the sorc who would get 4 power weapon attacks, depending on a res orb you can kill at least 1 with force weapon and up to 4 with him alone. Although it would definatly depend on the situation as to what is more beneficial at the time.
    If the charge in inevitable, then I'd agree that it's clearly better to get the charge off than to receive it. However, statistically, T.S. marines will kill more Crons at range than in c.c..

    Considering that Cron warriors only have basic weapons in c.c., the 4+ inv save on the T.S. marines goes to waste. In effect, T.S. marines become basic chaos marines in c.c., but at a much more expensive price tag (of course, they are also Fearless). This, coupled with the fact that Crons have more staying power in c.c. than T.S. means it's better to take the Warriors out at range, where the T.S. marines have inferno bolts, which in turn tilts the conflict back in their favor.

    That said, when skirmishing against Necrons, you'll want to have a unit other than the T.S. marines that can charge into the Warriors, once the T.S. marines have fired. This will protect your T.S. from receiving the Cron charge, and also allow them to fire at another enemy target the following round.
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