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First, as this is my first post, hello everyone!
Now, this is a question about rules that deal specifically and solely with the Chaos Codex. I realise that there is a rules section, but I feel that the Chaos forum will give this topic a broader readerbase, and readers who are more familiar with these rules. If this is inappropriate, Mods, please feel free to move this.
Recently, I was reading through some of the lesser-used pages of the codex just for fun and to see if there was anything unusual I didn't know about before. I found something I wasn't expecting in the wargear section! Apparently, Pintle Mounted (from here on: PM) Combi-Weapons/Twin Linked Bolters may always fire in addition to any other weapons as long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6". You may fire PM Combi-Weapons/TL Bolters and Ordnance! Its right there, plain as day on page 87 if you don't believe me. But I digress, this is not quite my topic.
My main topic is about Pintle Mounted Havoc Launchers. If you'll kindly flip to pages 96, 100, and 101 you'll notice that on tanks you may purchase a "Pintle Mounted Havoc Launcher", while on the Defiler you purchase a plain Havoc Launcher. Now, back on page 87, there is an entry for Havoc Launchers but no entry for a PM Havoc Launcher!
There are seperate entries for non-PM Combi-Weapons and TL Bolters, just as there is a seperate entry for non-PM Havoc Launchers. My main point by saying this is that rules-rise, a TL Bolter and a PM TL Bolter are two completely seperate things. If you open to page 87 and read the entries for the PM Weapons, you will see that they are not simply a regular weapon just stuck on the tank. PM Weapons are weapons all to themselves, which just happen to use a different weapon's profile.
Now, if you follow (I realise I'm not the best at explaining my reasoning), when you purchase a PM Havoc Launcher and flip to the wargear section, you will be out of luck. You may not use the Havoc Launcher profile for the PM Havoc Launcher because they are different weapons. Now, it is true that Pintle Mounted Weapons use the profile of the other weapon in their namesake, however, notice (still on page 87) that it is within the PM Weapons entries that tell you to use the other weapon's profile. You go from purchasing the PM Weapon to looking up the wargear entry which tells you which weapon profile to use for the PM Weapon. Remember! It's still not, even at this point and never will be, a Combi-Weapon/TL Bolter/Havoc Launcher. It is a Pintle Mounted weapon which uses the profile of one of those three.
What this means is that PM Havoc Launchers have no rules in the Chaos Codex! We either must not use them at all (since there are no rules for it) or we must use the closest applicable rules (much the same way we use the closest Large Blast rules for wounding and partials with Ordnance, no rules for that either). The closest rules in this case would be applying the Pintle Mounted "rules" which are identicle within both other PM entries. Otherwise, we would have nothing to tell us which profile to use for the PM Havoc Launcher.
Has anybody discussed this before? I'm fairly certain that my reasoning here is mostly sound, but I'm posting it here for your collective scrutiny. I could have missed something, after all.
Last edited by mb88; May 1st, 2008 at 22:49.
I think you've read into it a leeetle too much.
Its a havoc launcher, on a pintle or off a pintle. Therefore use the havoc launcher rules. The weapons themselves don't change profile etc., just their mounting changes so they have, as you said, that always fire rule (and if you've got an opponent with a flier, you hit them with your BS not on 6's).
If I've replied, i've probably used Italics...
www.goodbyeboltgun.blogspot.com - Some of my stuff.
It's just so you can't fire heaps of ordinance and then launch salvos of frag grenades to finish off anyone that survives.
But I never knew that, not that my tanks have pintle mounted anything.
And because of this, we have no rules for PM Havoc Launchers, which prompted my long, perhaps overly thought out post.
Well, that's a nice bit of rules lawyering there, but I don't think anybody will take you seriously.
mb88, a warm welcome to LO
And a very amusing first post too - bravo.
I think the problem with rules lawyering in this manner, is that it requires the development team to have actually meant such technicalities to actually matter.
What I mean is, stuff like this presumes that the games design staff purposely included such subtleties within the game and meant people to use it.
And now, I direct you back to reality - Games Workshop.
There is no way that they mean to include such subtle differences in the rules. These are people who will radically change the rules for daemons with absolutely no regard for how it will affect Chaos as a whole, or even other forces such as Grey Knights.
So, what I'm basically saying is that you're giving the lads in Nottingham far too much credit. It's like attributing special and complex reasons for why a baby smashes around a wooden block, when in reality it's just trying to get used to using it's body.
And so.. the RAI vs RAW battle goes on.
now excuse me if im totally off the deep end here (trying to learn atm)
havoc launchers fire normally under their own rules, pintle or not.
however, the only real difference difference being that pintles have their own separate LoS, and can fire on different targets?
That sounds correct to me arachnid.
Also, another personal issue of mine, but there is never any shame in learning. It should always be encouraged.
Not to be questioning of a vet player, but where does it say i can fire my PM anything at a different target that what the rest of the weapons are firing at?
Thousand Bows (SM)