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I've only just bought and started reading the new codex... and whilst i know often when new codex's come out, there's all the people moaning about how powerful something is.. how much better so and so is than so and so.. but in the end it all dies down and people learn to adapt to these new abilities on the battlefield. Because in the end, GW arn't dumb, and they know how to properly balance armies so any army can beat another. But this Chaos thing.. it's way unbalanced now. Because here's the simple truth - I can create an exact replica of a Space Marine army i've been using for years, with chaos troops, so i.e where-ever i have normal marines, ill have chaos marines, where ever i have assault i'll have raptors, and the Chaos army will not only be stronger, but less points.
Obviously i'm just referring to the Ubergrit as it's called. So you got a Chaos Marine with the exact same stat-line and points as a normal marine, except they get Krak + Frag grenades for free (Making Chaos and attacking in cover now obsolete.) and the ability to shoot boltguns and still get +1 Attack. Same goes for raptors except they're 2 points LESS than assault marines. I mean up to now, although you could always say 'well a Space Marine is much stronger than a guardsmen anyway' but then the guardsmen cost less.. the guardsmen fitted into his own army better as the army was unique. But Chaos, without any of the special abilitys anymore, to me just looks like a much better version of space marines.
I'm just hoping someone will obviously point out to me a fault in the army, or some way in which Space Marines can still have an upper-hand against them.
This is a major gripe amongst players, a lot of people (myself included) hate the new codex for this reason. They're not Chaos Marines any longer, more sort of spiky disgruntled loyalists.But Chaos, without any of the special abilitys anymore, to me just looks like a much better version of space marines.
GW has been trying to cover this up be repeating the phrase "Renegades, not 1000 year old veterans" over and over. Funny how Abaddon, Typhus and Ahriman, 3 of the most hardcore Chaos characters short of a primarch wind up being labled as mere "Renegades", despite them being some of the first to turn to chaos.
Seriously, Jervis is lucky they can't exact revenge for insulting them in such a manner.Do keep in mind that CSM don't have access to ATSKNF.Obviously i'm just referring to the Ubergrit as it's called. So you got a Chaos Marine with the exact same stat-line and points as a normal marine, except they get Krak + Frag grenades for free (Making Chaos and attacking in cover now obsolete.) and the ability to shoot boltguns and still get +1 Attack.
But anyway, the real point is that game balance isn't perfect. And while this is a fairly gross example of codex creep, you should keep in mind that really codexes aren't all that equal anyway. It's a repeating cycle. But for all this they're still not overpowered. They suffer the same weaknesses as other MEQ armies do so you can still exploit those. To one extent they've lost a lot of long ranged anti tank firepower because of the psuedo combat squads rules they have now. I've noticed a lot of Chaos players have trouble dealing with heavy tanks from afar because what they do have tends to be clustered in their Heavy Support choices and is vulnerable to things such as lascannons.
Last edited by Triumph Of Man; May 4th, 2008 at 14:35.
... only triumph could turn pooing his pants into a good thing..
Unbalanced? Don't worry, the scales will tip again.
Right after the loyal Marines will get their new codex.
You talk about differences? What about the fact that CSM's can no longer get veteran abilities? Daemonic mutations? Whilst the loyal Marines can get traits? How about the fact that Assault squads in loyal Marine armies can get melta bombs for ALL their squad members, and Raptors can only get two melta guns (three if you count the combi-melta you can give your champion)?
When the new Space Marine codex hits the shelves, you'll see that once again, even if for
just a little while, the universe is balanced.
Innovation suffuses this hobby like a tea bag in the boiling water of play.
Don't forget that chaos' heavy support, anti-tank options are pretty expensive too. Havocs have always been expensive, but lascannon predators are more expensive with less powerful upgrades, obliterators are weaker but more expensive. Land Raiders are the only exception, as they are now cheaper.
Also, don't forget about some of the loyalist vehicle options - Land Speeders, Razorbacks (oh what I would have done to get some Razorbacks for my old Emperor's Children army), the Land Raider Crusader, Dreadnoughts that don't go crazy and kill your own troops.
Overall, I think the new codex looks a lot like Dawn of War chaos... hmmm.
Well personally after reading over my friends a couple times, yes they are pretty under priced and have some huge power boosts. First of all I think theres two things that make the codex unbalanced.... The defiler and lash. First the loyalists get what for pie plate droppers wirl-winds? Which is'nt even viable except maybe a few horde armies. But the defiler for a fairly cheap cost you get somethings that slightly better than a Leman Russ (less armour value but has daemonic possesion) and double as a drednaught.
I'd like to show the space marine players something in their codex that seems to fair just fine.
There, now you've got a pie plate too, just like us. And I have a friend who slaps 3 dredys (one ven dred) with just basic assault cannons on them and they're a freaking force to recon with at any point level.
And furious charging jump troops, we don't get that. Or lords with a 2+/4+.
There's a lot of things space marines get that we don't. Ours are just new so there's new tactics for them all.
And we don't get multi-meltas on troops. I <3 multi-meltas.
Well also look at the range on the demolisher cannon 24 inchs, now look at the battle cannons range, and against a army like Necrons the range really matters a vindicator will almost always get shot down on its way to its target but a defiler can sit way at the back and take pots shots and still have close combat weapons to defend its self.
I think the key to this debate is the belief that Chaos is just Loyalists with spikes. There's a lot to support this belief, but there's a lot that goes directly against it. If you want spiky loyalists, make an army using chaos bits but the loyalist codex.
Chaos is very similar to Loyalists, however, there are key differences that make them different armies and it's these differences that make them unique.
Chaos is more focused on close-combat, hence the ubergrit, the defiler, lesser and greater daemons, the lash, cheaper assault marines, etc, etc, etc.
Loyalists are more reliant on their guns and vehicles - assault cannons, land speeders, better heavy weapon options for basic troops, the tank hunters veteran skill.
I think people are also abusing the term "unbalanced." Those elements that supposively make chaos unbalanced are the elements that consitute the advantages chaos has. By this logic, every army has something they excel at - they are perfectly and easily countered with the right army composition and the right use of tactics. If your opponent doesn't know how to deal with a particular element of your army, the fault is on him for not knowing how to deal with it, not your fault for using it.
Last edited by grimmtu; May 4th, 2008 at 19:23.
They really are not that different in points cost it is just they have been moved around. I have a marine army that I have a chaos and loyal list for (depending on if I want to be traitors or not fluff wise) and while yeah loyal marines right now have to pay for krak and frag grenades and dont have the ubergrit they do have ATSKNF + they have cheaper powerfist and plasma guns, plus the option to have multi-melta or plasma cannon on infantry.
The only thing that really bugs me is that Lords / Sorcerers and even Master / Chaplins / Libarians can not get veteran skills at all or only if they take a squad in the chase of the loyal HQs which is silly as 99 times out of a 100 these guys are hundreds or thousands of years old.
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