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Anybody here having any luck against Ork Nobz? My primary opponent plays Orks, and I haven't yet found a reliable way to take these guys down besides a Plegm Cannon (which isn't terribly reliable to begin with).
He fields them in a squad of 10, all with big choppas and twin-linked shootas. They have a Painboy and Cybork bodies. For anybody who isn't familiar with Orkiness, think S6 plague marines with furious charge and 2 wounds each and double the amount of attacks in CC.
I've tried a few different things. Daemonettes and Bloodletters seem to both be about the same effectiveness-wise. If I get the charge, I manage to take down 2-3 of the Nobz before they retaliate and kill the entire Daemon Squad. To truly have a good chance of destroying the Nobz, I find that I need 2-3 full squads to all attack at once. Anything less than that and it ends up just being a trade off of points (usually slightly in his favor).
Theoretically, the best possible weapons I can use against them are Str 8+ AP 4- stuff. This negates their armor, FnP, AND instant kills their multi-wound butts (but they still get invuln saves). However, this is rather hard to come by in any amount large enough to truly threaten the Nobz squad.
Basically, it comes down to Bloodthirsters and Plegm Cannon, I think? I haven't used a Bloodthirster on them yet (it died from his Rokkits before it got to the Nobz) but I doubt even a Thirster could take on the full squad. He could surely kill some, but he would then fall to their high strength within a couple turns. I suppose then that it falls to the Plegm Cannon to kill them in the most cost-effective way. I am frustrated however, with its fragility (a flaw all vehicles inherently have), going down to Rokkits, Power Klaws, and even the Nobz on charge (through mass glancings).
Is there something I'm missing here? Or are we just ill-equipped to handle these Nobz? I understand that an army can't be effective against everything, it is just frustrating to not be able to effectively deal with this 400+ point squad. Help is appreciated!
Thanks for the response, I was beginning to lose hope!
His army has only a single squad of these guys, and yes, for the most part it is suicide trying to fight it. I mostly just try to ignore it and play keep away since its slower than I am. The problem with that though, is that it is such a point heavy unit that it ends up being a big glaring hole in the availability of victory points for me to take. My opponent also throws in Ghazghull (spelling?) to this squad. He is NASTY in CC. Nearly unstoppable, in fact. Whenever he wants (once a game, but whichever turn) he may declare a special Wagghh in which all Ork infantry get fleet and Ghazghull gets a 2+ invuln save. He is also immune to instant death, has many wounds, etc, etc.
My only point in mentioning him is to point out that not only does ignoring the Nobz lose me upwards of 400 VPs, but also another ~250ish VPs for Ghazghull. It is a MASSIVE point-sink. I understand this. I don't want anyone to think that I don't understand what kind of advantage that gives me VP-wise. If I can kill it, I've pretty much got the game in the bag, I know this. The problem is killing it, and killing it effectively.
Now, the Pink Horros being AP 4....I had forgotten about that. Thanks! =) That might be something to look into, jumping around with Horrors and shooting him. Unfortunately, the AP won't effect the Nobz all that much. They still have a 5+ invuln they can use and FnP. So they go from a 4+/4+ to a 5+/4+. Not forgetting the double wounds on each Nob, of course.
Flamers sound good in theory, but they have not worked well for me in the past against the Nobz. Think like this, I hit with a flamer and say I get 8 out of the 10 under the template, I feel that is a good reasonable amount. 4+, so 4 of them wound. The Nobz still get their invuln and FnP. So a 5+/4+ (which is equivalent to a 3+). So I will cause 1.33 wounds per template shot! That isn't even a full Nob killed! Then of course, since they're in flamer range the Nobz charge them and...SQUISH!
Last edited by mb88; May 19th, 2008 at 20:35.
well 5+ inv. is not that big of a deal considering you have +5s too so it is "even field". You can charge with Skulltaker on Juggers with bloodcrushers. that way your overall units are better than his and you could force a LD check after (hopefully) winning that round of combat. I would rotate 2 horror units around it - 5 guys per unit that is 30 shots per round AP4. You should be able to kill a few and stay far enough that unless he rolls a 6 on his fleet he wont catch you.
I'm thinking about those Horrors a little more, and it will take more than 2 squads of 5 or 1 squad of 10 to harm the Nobz. When I did the math out, 30 shots with 15 hitting, 7 wounding, and then 5 of the 7 saving. Thats 2 wounds, which is 1 Nob dead per turn.
The Skulltaker and Crushers are an interesting combination I think may be worth trying, though. Sounds very killy. Forcing a LD test will be less than effective, unfotunately. Sorry, I forgot to mention earlier (I know Ork's normally weakness is LD) but because he uses Ghazghuul to lead the squad its LD 10 and with his cheap bosspoll he can reroll it if it fails.
Big Choppas reduce Initiative, correct? A large, charging squad of Bloodletters should be able to mangle them up a bit, after hitting them with some shooting from another squad. A squad like that is a gigantic points sink, so if you hit them that's taking out a huge chunk of the Ork player's army (in most cases). Power weapons will negate Feel No Pain and their 4+ saves, so all you have to worry about is causing enough wounds and getting by their invulnerable saves.
The thing to remmeber is, if he is dropping 650 points into this squad, then you can spend 650 points to get rid of it (On the most basic level). So ever thought of sending 40 bloodletters his way? Lets do some MathHammer.
40 bloodletters charging 10 Nobs.
120 attacks hitting on 3s,
80 hits, 3+ to wound,
54 (Rounded up) saves for him.
He will, on average, fail 36 of them, and gets not FnP.
Thats 18 dead Nobs, which should sort out the entire squad, before they get to attack back.
Obviously we all know there are more factors (Shooting, cover, not getting the charge) etc, but from a 'best situation' point of view, this seems to work well.
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Doing the math out, if I charge with a squad of 10 Bloodletters I will attack 30 times, hit 15 times, 10 wounds (furious charge giving me extra strength), and then 6.66 wounds landing after the 5+ invuln. That is 3 Nobz dead. There will be 7 Nobs left to attack back. That is 21 attacks. 10.5 hit. 8.75 wound. 5.83 wounds get through the 5+ invuln save. That is just about 6 Bloodletters biting the dust. Ghazghull attacks 5 times. 3.33 hits. 2.77 wounds. 1.85 (~2) wounds get through Invuln. 2 more 'Letters die for 8 total.
So if I charge, I kill 120 points of Nobz, yet lose 128 points of Bloodletters.
If HE charges, he gets 40 attacks. 20 hits. 16.67 wounds. 11.11 wounds get through the Bloodletter's save. All hope is not lost however! Attacks are simul, so the 10 Bloodletters still get to make their 20 attacks. 10 hits. 5 wounds. 3.33 wounds get through the invuln. That is 1 Nob dead. I won't bother to do Ghaz's attacks, as with 11.11 wounds dealt previously, chances are his won't even be needed.
So, if HE charges I kill 40 points of Nobz, and loose 160 points of Bloodletters.
Mathhammer-wise, Bloodletters are not effective at killing these Nobz alone. Clearly though, this is flawed as I would always have (or try to have) backup to help the Bloodletters. I have used Bloodletters against him before, but I have never been able to charge him with them. As soon as they land, he makes it his sole priority to take them out before they reach his Nobz (which he should, as there isn't anything much else that even reaches Bloodletters' meager effectiveness against them).
Keep in mind that the Nobz themselves have twin-linked shootas which will deal 3.7 unsaved wounds to Bloodletters who are OUT of charging range. Ghazghull also has a twin-linked Big Shoota which will deal another .74 unsaved wounds at an even longer range. Thats 4.4 unssaved wounds. This will basically cut a Bloodletter squad in half long before it can reach the Nobz. Terrain can sometimes help with this, but it isn't a sure thing. Basically what we have with Bloodletters is a situation where, "With the right circumstances and charge and the right terrain and with the dice Gods on our side we can...just make our points back."Yes, you are correct, an even number of points in Bloodletters put squarely against an even number of points in Nobz WILL kill it. Organizing 1 squad or even 2 squads can be simple enough to get into CC with the Nobz with minimal casualties. However, orchestrating 4 10-daemon squads of 'Letters into CC with a single Nob squad without taking casualties is just about impossible during play.Originally Posted by Riptor
This is the major problem with these Nobz. Sure, with most difficult squads I could play Anvil/Hammer and kill them by outplaying him. You can't anvil these Nobz, though. They will kill just about any "anvil" squad you send at them in 1 round of combat before you can move your "hammer" squad into assault. With the possible exception of Nurglings.
Hmmmm...what about Nurglings as anvil and Bloodletters as hammer? I'll have to do the math on that later to see if it'd actually work. It might be the answer!He still gets FnP against AP 4 things.Originally Posted by darkreever
Last edited by mb88; May 19th, 2008 at 22:59.
You mentioned getting two units into combat with them at the same time isn't hard. Two units of 10 letters will deal (2/3*2/3*2/3*60=17.7777 wounds, which is 8 or 9 dead nobs on average. Now they only have 3 attacks left, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.8333 dead letters from the nobz and 1.85 from Ghazkul. Thats 2 or 3 dead letters to 9 nobz, and you still have 17 left vs 1 nob and Ghazkul.
I think you had done your math wrong before (BL are a higher WS than nobz unless they have an item that makes them WS 5). (2/3)^3*30= 8.89 wounds, not 6.66. Thats 4.5 nobz dead, so they would kill in return 18*1/2*5/6*2/3= 5 from the nobz and 1.85 from Ghazkul means 6.85 ~ 7 dead. I think you definately come out on top on this exchange if the nobz are around 40 points a piece. For the last 3 letters, 2/3*1/2*2/3*6=1.33333, so you'll finish off at nob you wounded before and lose the final 3 letters. So in total, you removed half of that expensive unit using less than half its points of letters. Not bad.
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