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So I was looking at the FAQ Posted on the GW site for Chaos...and 1 particular Line in it got my attention for a Thousand suns list i am working on right now...
"Powers That are Psychic shooting attacks can only be made once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used Multiple times as it is not a Psychic shooting attack. The same is true for warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more then once per turn!"
The original question was directed at Ahriman using it, but since Thousand suns aspiring sorcerers can all cast 2 psychic powers per turn I thought itd be a sick idea of right as the 1k Suns rapid fire / prepare to charge the target, turning the Leader of the squad that will almost always have a power fist / power weapon into a chaos spawn (Always would have models...) would be a sick idea for a 1k suns themed army.
mass of AP 3 shots, followed by losing your power weapon, and then me having a D6 Str 5 attacks model in close combat as the marine stat line 1k suns charge with a force weapon would be sick8X
Just wanted to know what you guys would think a list like that would look like, my big problem tryin to make one is squads of 1k suns take up a LOT of an army list.
"Accept that Tzeentch has a place for all of us in his grand scheme and be happy in the part you have to play." -Magnus the red-
Hey your post is a bit hard to follow.
Many people like using gift of chaos with there aspiring sorcerers but its widely seen that doombolt is a better choice, it meshes better with the inferno bolts of the thousand sons marines and means you can stay out of the combat zone were you dont want to be and lay down some shooting power.
Well the main thing im tryin to ask is essentially i have a list wrote up, usually involving 2-3 Squads of 1000 suns, and an HQ Sorcerer. I dont know what else to fit in the army (Not much cause of the cost) To try and make it a good overall list.
The reasoning behind not using doombolt though, is gift of chaos x 2 Can eliminate on average 1 model of the enemy squad, possibly 2 based on rolls. While not using up his shooting, so therefore he could fire off his AP 3 Bolt pistol at 12 inches, making another possible target die and still meshing well with the 1000 suns troopers.
So yea i lose the 2 extra shots from doombolt, but i gain possibly 2 Chaos spawns at my oppenents expense of his squad leader / Heavy or special weapon / HQ choice.
Last edited by Xenofei; May 23rd, 2008 at 08:18. Reason: noticed difference in codex
A bit pedantic, but it's probably worth making the effort on a chaos specific forum, but it's 1000 Sons, not 1000 suns.
(think children rather than giant nuclear balls of hot)
you raise a good point with the use of spawn, however you are taking into account just the sorceror model and not the rest of the squad.
What are 1000 Sons good at? The answer is shooting. Why do you want to waste their inferno bolts in close combat? You pay good points for the AP, so it's best to use it.
That said, 1K sons are deceptively good in combat due to their invulnerable save, a bit like slow power armour clad wyches.
For this reason, Dan suggests taking doom bolt. The strength and range mesh very well with what 1K sons need to be doing anyway - firing torrents of fire power and eliminating infantry from the battle field.
The other reason I would council against your idea is that you don't begin the match in CC with the opponent. You will need to wait two or three turns to get there. With slow and purposeful however, and the nice range on the doombolt, you can start getting your points back much faster.
Like I said, however, there is merit in your idea, and gift of chaos is brilliant. I would suggest that you implement it on a flying sorceror solo character instead though.
The fact of the matter is, the only thing which is holding back your plan is the fact that you have to buy rubrics who are by no means cheap. Best to make use of them as best as possible
Oh i know its sons not suns, just its what i get for making a forum past after midnight and being half asleep heh.
But what ive been asking isn't just the Chaos spawn vs doombolt debate (Heck for a few more points i can just take both after all) what ive been asking is if i take like most likely 2 squads of the old dustsuits and probably a sorcerer on a disk Is what else should i be trying to fit in the list for around 1500 Points (its what the people i play withs normal Games are) If im going to be probably either Rhino'ing the 2 squads closer, or possibly footslog em with like defiler / dreadnaught support.
The idea behind gettin em close though for GoC, is that if i lets say Turn the squad leader with a powerfist into a chaos spawn, i dont need to CC or worry about a charge from that unit at all. and when the Dreadnaught / Defiler then charges in, nothing in the squad can hurt it. Sort of a Thousand Sons CC army if you will, but i am trying to go for a theme of keeping it Pure thousand suns, so no berserker's or anything. Might try to include a regular marine squad with the icon of Tzeench though.
Just wanted to know what you guys would put in besides the 2 Squads of Dustsuits and the sorcerer if you were goin for the Gift of chaos as much as i would be.
I would still have your 'Gift givers' as two independant character sorcerors with Wings/Disc and the appropriate abilities.
For tactical balance, you could always add a couple of factors to the army for the mixup. consider a small retinue of terminators and maybe a sorceror in terminator armour.
This can easily get behind enemy lines thanks to deep strike, and gives your forces more chances to get up close and personal.
I would also recommend units like Raptors who are fast and can tie up units nice and quickly.
That is if you choose the infantry route.
However, slow and purposeful is your enemy if you wish to get into CC. So I'd suggest meching up and getting in that way. Rhino cases for your rubrics, and then pack as much armour as you can.
Predators are of course great bang for your buck, and defilers and vindicator have the ZOMG-PIE-PLATE-MUST-KILL factor which is wonderful from drawing attention away from your rubric squads.
Defilers are probably better as they can offer better CC support. The combination is a tempting one if you rid the squad of their hidden sting with gift.
One thing though:Please watch out for this. The greatest threat to 1K sons lies not in plasma, power weapons, rending or powerfists as it does with normal marines. The greatest threat to 1K sons is a large number of normal attacks. You pay a lot of points to enjoy protection against strong attacks - which is why a fist represents little concern to you anyway, but weak attacks have just the same chance of killing you as a normal marine, effectively meaning if they succeed, which they often do, then they are wasting your points.The idea behind gettin em close though for GoC, is that if i lets say Turn the squad leader with a powerfist into a chaos spawn, i dont need to CC or worry about a charge from that unit at all.
Also bear in mind that 1K sons aren't exactly amazing in close combat. They're good because they're tough and they are a good counter to standard CC units like Genestealers or Death Company. however, they don't exactly hurt much back with their low attacks. Plus the sorceror is going to have to rely on luck more than anything to do dramatic damage with his puny S.
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hehe thank you for the welcome, read here for a long time, figured id try posting for once.Thats what my point is though with the said defiler / Dreadnaught, They dont have to get into CC, Gift of chaos isnt a ranged attack and can be used on models even in Close combat. One of the reasons i take it is if im not fighting marines for example, spawning up a chaos spawn in a guard squad is lethal, and occupies (and probably kills) the squad itself, if not they cant fire and worst case scenario is the thousand suns move on to the next unit, while an HQ sorcerer (so i dont waste a squad of fire) can run up, turn another guardsmen or 2 into another chaos spawn, then charge it, easily killing the squad.Also bear in mind that 1K sons aren't exactly amazing in close combat.
Which then leaves me with more models (and points) then i would had when i first engaged the unit, and i have more and more Tie up with CC with the multiple chaos spawns running and spreading havoc along enemy lines. My main idea with the gift is by use of chaos spawns and walkers, i dont have to get them into CC, period, and the most deadly of enemies in teh squads engaged with my walkers / HQs wont be able to hurt them at all.
to be honest, it sounds like you know what you're doing, so I think you should just go for it, and then tell us how it went.
The main point I'm raising is kind of against Gift of Chaos within squads of rubrics.
I mean, you have clearly taken into consideration how to counter this CC weakness, but by using rubrics in CC it's the player who created the problem in the first place
Either way, sorceror HQs zipping around the battlefield opens up MANY options to you.
Including regular marked CSM - either Tzeentch or Nurgle or something. Who are generalyl useful and pack some awesome CC potential.
Basically... with GoC in your squads, you have to play a certain way to take into account the limitations of rubrics (remembers thralls).
However, with GoC on 2 independant characters, you can more or less crowbar them into any army you like.
Good luck, and I am genuinely interested to hear how it goes.
OK, sorry Ive not been able to reply since this morning, ive been at work.
One thing you seem to be ignoring is AT power, you must include atleast two AT units in 1500 points. Things to consider would be predators with auto las, raptors with dual melta and fist and havocs with ML or LC.
As Karmoon said, you seem to know what you are doing with your thousand sons, what Id suggest is playing three + games against varied opponants and seeing how they fare.
A flying/disk lord would mesh well with Raptors too.
Also, even if the enemy has a lot of bodies, what happens if they're mechanised?
Even if you could turn 100 Guardsmen into spawn in one turn... if they're all in Chimeras they're not gonna be particularly worried.
So.. just highlighting what the Warsmith said.